Forum Index Feedback and Suggestions The REASON why people are getting oneshot from random normal mobs?

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So, as most people are aware, when you use the Eternity Shroud, combined with a bunch of conversion, combined with a bunch of Shaper items, you get a ton of damage that double-dips based on your conversion.

What some of you may not know is that monsters can have conversion on their skills as well.

The mod that double dips based on conversion is "Gain Non-Chaos Damage as Extra Chaos Damage" or "Gain Elemental Damage as Extra Chaos Damage", as seen on certain Shaper items.

Now, when you give mods to Maps, often you'll see mods that state "Monsters deal % Extra Damage as (Lightning/Fire/Cold)"

So my question, GGG, is whether or not these mods double-dip for monsters for their conversions, just like they double-dip for us. Because if they do, in fact, double dip for monsters, it might explain a whole slew of one-shots that makes HC players find themselves back in SC.

mountaindog
Nov 14, 2019 03:39:08 AM

They don't, additive damage only works on conversion for double dips.

And even in that case it has to be a general over-arching modifier like "elemental" instead of a specific type.

It's not even correct to call it "double dipping" since you are still investing in conversion to gain the benefit.
What we used to call "double dipping" were modifiers that impacted multiple layers of calculation with a single investment point.

Gain X of element as chaos gives the chaos benefit for every step of the elemental conversions, but you still need to invest in those conversions.

Peace,

-Boem-

Boem
Nov 14, 2019 04:27:16 AM

Those mods only apply to physical damage.

If normal mobs are one shotting you, or even 5 shotting you, you just don’t have meaningful defenses on your build.

Vesuvius079
Nov 14, 2019 05:17:13 AM

Yeah that's not double dipping.

Fruz
Nov 14, 2019 05:25:35 AM

Well most my one shot deaths are due to a single mod in the game = > Powerful crits.

I remember my 8,5k es witch dying to a single hit of a single blue small spider with powerful crits in delve lol.

Mortyx
Nov 14, 2019 19:38:24 PM

"
Mortyx wrote:
Well most my one shot deaths are due to a single mod in the game = > Powerful crits.


This.

I can survive a Shaper slam in Uber Elder fight, but I was one-shoted by Chimera with +% crit and extra lightning damage once i entered the arena.

frostzor27
Nov 14, 2019 20:35:34 PM

"
Boem wrote:
They don't, additive damage only works on conversion for double dips.

And even in that case it has to be a general over-arching modifier like "elemental" instead of a specific type.

It's not even correct to call it "double dipping" since you are still investing in conversion to gain the benefit.
What we used to call "double dipping" were modifiers that impacted multiple layers of calculation with a single investment point.

Gain X of element as chaos gives the chaos benefit for every step of the elemental conversions, but you still need to invest in those conversions.

Peace,

-Boem-


Absolutely true! Still double-dipping though.

Do the math regarding it, there's a reason why conversion is the strongest (by far) method to gain extra DPS.

Let's say we got a mob which does 100 phys and 100 fire damage base.
The map got 100% damage as extra fire.
So this means we got 100 phys and 300 fire. --> Not double-dipping yet.

Now we got an aura from some other creature which says 'extra elemental damage', let's say 100% again.
Then suddenly it becomes awful. The first dip is the extra fire, so doubling the damage, the second dip then is based on the first, we suddenly got 100 phys and 600 fire, meaning a total of 350% base damage since it's a multiplicative effect instead of an additive one.

It only gets worse if we have a mod which adds crit to it or then further adds any sort of damage after fire.

So let's say we got 100% damage as map-mod, 100% damage from a mob, 50% as extra chaos and 100% extra crit multi, not the whole situation becomes fairly dumb:

100 phys base, 100 fire base --> 100% extra becomes 100 phys 300 fire --> 100% ele becomes 100 phys 600 fire --> 50% chaos becomes 100 phys 600 fire 350 chaos --> 100% crit-multi means 250% damage which is 250 phys, 1500 fire and 875 chaos.

And that's not a situation which is rare, with a few mods alone it changes the base damage of 200 to a base damage of 1050, which is 525% difference. And a crit damage of 300 to one dealing 2675, which means an even worse one of over 890% difference.

That's obviously something which causes issues, it's not a linear progression for damage (which would be fairly easy to properly balance.) but a multiplicative one. Combined with the RNG in the game allowing the combination of several of those multiplicative mods to stack and we can easily get mobs which one-shot you no matter what you do. Rarely... but we get them.
Lucky for us that we also do so much damage that they barely ever show their damage-potential when they come up, but if... well, more then enough posts about that existing.

Kulze
Nov 16, 2019 15:13:38 PM

The reason is that ggg only balances HP and damage numbers.

Players have all immunities to all ailments, freeze,stun,curse, phasing, insta heal from no hp into full.

So there is never a struggle fight, either faceroll mobs or get one-shotted.

webas
Nov 16, 2019 16:15:27 PM

Most mobs don't have conversions

MasterTBC
Nov 16, 2019 17:54:28 PM

Hi, im a old wolf in games, ofc that reasons come FROM A BAD ENGINE - i mean is too fast, and i and most of my friends happen same thing.


Ofc i dont have more then 3-4 ex gear, im on tier 7-8 maps, but lets be onest - some mobs ARE INSANELY fast moving or hit ya, and i or you die asap.


This engine should be refined, and make it a little slower, i mean fast paced, to see at least what we go agains it.

I being a witch, in most battles i press Z to not see loot and die by not seeing enemies etc, and i barely see minibosses status - weakness and so on....


Please learn from Lost Ark, or at least Diablo engine, those are indeed fast paced true gameplay.

Littleonne
Nov 16, 2019 19:04:25 PM
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