Forum Index General Discussion Biggest thing I saw that D4 appears to have that PoE doesn't

History

"
"
Bleu42 wrote:

hehehehe *rubs hands*

*Keyed dungeons will have difficulty levels that scale possibly infinitely*
*Legendaries don't just drop as legs, but there's also ancients and Mythics*


Is ancient a rarity now? That'd be dumb. I loved how they brought back tiered gear. I've been hoping PoE would do that, it'd make base drops a lot more exciting.


You're excited by the words they use to describe items?

Shagsbeard
Nov 04, 2019 15:06:58 PM

"
Nephalim wrote:
You need a legendary staff to put LMP on your fireball skill, just your fireball skill. D4 is a decade behind in depth with skill tree system.


yes but then it is easier to balance and to create great gameplay with it.

Head_Less
Nov 04, 2019 15:57:36 PM

"
Head_Less wrote:
"
Nephalim wrote:
You need a legendary staff to put LMP on your fireball skill, just your fireball skill. D4 is a decade behind in depth with skill tree system.


yes but then it is easier to balance and to create great gameplay with it.



Agreed. I actually find this more enjoyable than those huge numbers we see all the time playing D3. You have no idea unless you take a screenshot of what damage you actually are doing, the numbers are just too big. Too much power creep in this game and POE is slowing becoming this way too.

At least GGG realized that and have nerfed multiplicative effects like poison double-dipping to keep this more manageable. Well, at least in POE the damage is not shown on the screen.

frogemoth
Nov 04, 2019 16:09:34 PM

"
frogemoth wrote:
"
Head_Less wrote:
"
Nephalim wrote:
You need a legendary staff to put LMP on your fireball skill, just your fireball skill. D4 is a decade behind in depth with skill tree system.


yes but then it is easier to balance and to create great gameplay with it.



Agreed. I actually find this more enjoyable than those huge numbers we see all the time playing D3. You have no idea unless you take a screenshot of what damage you actually are doing, the numbers are just too big. Too much power creep in this game and POE is slowing becoming this way too.

At least GGG realized that and have nerfed multiplicative effects like poison double-dipping to keep this more manageable. Well, at least in POE the damage is not shown on the screen.



I'm trying really hard to not make a personal comment on your mental capabilities if D3 was too difficult to decipher your damage numbers...

And tbh how hidden damage numbers and relying on Path of Building, and not even knowing if the damage you think should be happening, is happening, is superior is some way, blows my mind.

Hell GGG puts out patch notes on fixes for some skills like TS, and no one even knew it wasnt working right to begin with. Lol

DarthSki44
Nov 04, 2019 16:23:48 PM

You don't need to balance the game when the game has no depth and players have no customization outside of picking what 5 skills to use. Is this really what players want from an rpg?

What is the purpose of seeing damage numbers on the screen, do you have every mob hp count memorized and can visualize extremely large numbers in your head or would you rather look at how fast they died or a healthbar if its a boss?

It blows my mind people would want to ruin their eyes with a flood of numbers on the screen.

Nephalim
Nov 04, 2019 16:36:11 PM

"
KZA wrote:
In the gameplay trailer, when the sorceress was dealing with just a handful of white mobs, she clustered them together, froze the group with a few ice blasts, then shattered them with a single meteor.

Now why is that so impressive? Here's why.

In PoE, the screen is completely stuffed with mobs and skill effects. You can't count how many mobs there are on the screen, let alone even tell what kind of monsters you're dealing with because you just scoot, explode several screens in one shot, scoot, explode several screens in one shot, repeat X 1000000.

If I want to survive, I want to have to assess how many mobs there are, what kind they are, what skills they're using, their positioning, what spells they are weak against, and then tactically use a variety of my skills to debilitate, control and murder them as effectively as possible. You know, something less mindless, automated and easy.

With that alone, D4 looks like it has my vote. (assuming they keep it that way come release, of course).

P.S. World PVP has me hyped!

Yea ... in PoE everything dies so fast all the CC is completely obsolete. Certainly something D4 can set itself apart with.

inb4 "but you don't even beat shaper yet you are not allowed to have opinions"
(hostile anti casual community in PoE is another factor that will probably help D4 grow)

dyneol
Nov 04, 2019 17:02:11 PM

It's a different style of game.

The footage for Diablo 4 that KZA is praising looked impossibly boring to me, with slow, ineffective characters struggling to deal with even just one or two enemies. Movement was limited, the sorceress' spells did effectively nothing, and the barbarian needing to hit something half a dozen times before it succumbed struck me as exceptionally frustrating. Maybe I'm just too used to Path.

Admittedly, I don't like Blizzard's design philosophy in general these days. Blizzard is on record as favoring polish over substance and ease of play over depth of play; their famous "anything that makes you put the controller down is out, no matter how good an idea it might otherwise be" stance is abhorrent to me.

I have no interest in an ARPG that doesn't offer at least as much customization and variance as Diablo 2 did. Diablo 3 is famous for having effectively zero build variance within a given class; ALL (effectively built) demon hunters were more or less identical, as were ALL witch doctors, ALL barbarians, and so forth. I have no reason to believe that Diablo 4 will be different, and thus no reason to be interested in the game.

But, being totally honest here? I'm happy they're doing it. If they can stick with that nasty, gritty style where you need to spend ten minutes taking out a single pack, then it'll be an excellent option for the people who hate Path of Exile's focus on quickness and mass damage to investigate. Everybody wins when there's a game for everybody, and there's no reason for Diablo to chase the speed meta.

Heh...just gotta remember that some people like what Path brings to the table, as well.

1453R
Nov 04, 2019 17:37:43 PM

Look let's be clear here. The people who are saying PoB sucks out the complexity are wrong.

They don't even have a point to make, let alone a good point.

What PoB does is allows you to compare options efficiently. That's a about the limit of it, it can't do a whole lot to help you determine what builds are going to be good, and especially not if X build is better than Y build, it can only make making specific choices on how to gain numeric bonuses easier.

Many "best dps" options are traps, PoB cannot effectively calculate many aspects of AoE damage and effectiveness. PoB cannot handle all synergies between items correctly. Countless synergies and builds require you to already know about them and correctly input a ton of math/custom items to get PoB to calculate them correctly. PoB can't weigh the relative value of movement speed, cast points, or how different types of AoE behave for you.

There's probably a lot more that could be said about what it can't do, but all and all it should be pretty obvious that it's a simple calc tool and doesn't do jack to help you solve any more creative or abstract problems that aren't answered with raw DPS numbers on hit and EHP.

Salty people on the forums and reddit talk a lot of shit about how the passive tree is mostly "false complexity," yet through the passive tree, items, and gems combined, this game has more strong end game builds that play differently to toy around with than any other ARPG that's been released by a wide margin.

Doing a quick count through some build websites, I found about 82+ strong end game builds, where-as diablo 3 for example has had maybe 21ish viable builds tops at the same time. Realistically that's being a little generous, and for most of that game's existence it has been lower and tbh I don't know if it's even that high right now, that's just about the peak.


My point here being, that there's a ton of variety which is enabled by the huge complex passive tree and gem setup, and there's a lot of room for playstyle tweaks within that which are very debatable and can't be solved with PoB number crunching because you need to do more than just kill things, and you need to make intelligent choices about trading off between raw damage, survivability, utility, AoE, and speed. There isn't even one or two top build(s) that have the best of all worlds as they're typically dependent on a key ability which may be less ideal for some areas of gameplay.


As for other parts of this discussion, it's a bit more up in the air. I really enjoyed D3 for a lot of reasons, it's just that build complexity, player choice, or variety, could not possibly be one of those reasons as the game didn't have any of them from a character building standpoint.

From the looks of it, D4 will be just the same, or possibly even lower in variety. They're going balls deep on the AAA-Awesome method of game development.

yakri
Nov 04, 2019 18:06:28 PM

"
Shagsbeard wrote:
"

Is ancient a rarity now? That'd be dumb. I loved how they brought back tiered gear. I've been hoping PoE would do that, it'd make base drops a lot more exciting.


You're excited by the words they use to describe items?


Not just the words used to describe them, the rarity and stat boosts that come from it. Like right now if you were to find a decent ilvl Elder Exquisite Blade it'd be a pretty exciting drop.

Now imagine if items had two more tiers like superior and pristine at like a 15% and 5% chances for items to drop like that. They could give 5% and 10% bonus quality and shave off some of the lower tier rolls it can get.

Getting a Pristine ilvl 80+ Elder Exquisite Blade would be super exciting.

BloodPuddles420
Nov 04, 2019 19:11:58 PM

"
Valmar wrote:
You just miss the lack of customization and zero complexity.


Is it really that complex or does it just seem that way? Ya I can put my points anywhere I want but then I wont do well. I have to seek life nodes for a life build, fire nodes for a fire build, etc. When I first started playing I was a bit intimidated by the number of options on this massive talent tree. Now that I'm a veteran player I know 90 out of the 110 points I'll take are generic to the general type character I made - while the remaining few will make the difference. But is that all dissimilar from Diablo where you have only a few key nodes to choose from? Not really.

elesham4ever
Nov 04, 2019 20:35:21 PM
  • Prev
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 6
  • Next