Forum Index Feedback and Suggestions Make minion stances an inherent UI option for summons

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Of COURSE minion stance determination is helpful. THAT'S WHY IT REQUIRES A SUPPORT GEM SLOT.

Why is it that nobody seems to understand the difference between asking for QOL and asking for zero-cost global buffs? lmao

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate
Aug 25, 2019 15:55:44 PM

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Of COURSE minion stance determination is helpful. THAT'S WHY IT REQUIRES A SUPPORT GEM SLOT.

Why is it that nobody seems to understand the difference between asking for QOL and asking for zero-cost global buffs? lmao
If you play other games then you already know that minion stance determination and targeting tend to be given to players. Trying to re-frame what's usual in other games as "seeking a global buff" seems out of place*.

As for my last post, I was responding to the previous poster who seemed to be claiming that minion stances aren't really very useful. Which is an argument that doesn't hold up.

* Sometimes RPGs will have minions that you summon (ie: a powerful demon) that follows its own will. But, those are more the exception than the norm. And, it makes a certain kind of sense that if somebody has the ability to create / summon something that they'd also have the ability to tell it what to do.

EnjoyTheJourney
Aug 25, 2019 18:38:42 PM

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Of COURSE minion stance determination is helpful. THAT'S WHY IT REQUIRES A SUPPORT GEM SLOT.

Why is it that nobody seems to understand the difference between asking for QOL and asking for zero-cost global buffs? lmao

If you play other games


This is where I stopped reading, because this is where your entire point has zero validity.

Call of Duty lets us call in airstrikes. Do we need airstrikes in Path of Exile? Of course not. But what you are trying to say is IDENTICALLY fallacious, because it's based on the assumption of "this thing that worked in a totally different context is therefore automatically valid for implementation here."

So to repeat my earlier point: you are asking for a zero cost buff, and not exactly a small one either, which is a terrible idea because EVERYTHING in Path of Exile has an opportunity cost vis a vis, "limited number of support gems" or "requires this passive keystone and/or specific gear" and so on.

If melee aficionados had made a thread exactly like this wondering why Blood and Sand wasn't always active and selectable without requiring a skill gem or mana reservation, would you have felt their request reasonable? Because it's not, and neither is yours.

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate
Aug 25, 2019 19:27:59 PM

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"
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Of COURSE minion stance determination is helpful. THAT'S WHY IT REQUIRES A SUPPORT GEM SLOT.

Why is it that nobody seems to understand the difference between asking for QOL and asking for zero-cost global buffs? lmao

If you play other games


This is where I stopped reading, because this is where your entire point has zero validity.

Call of Duty lets us call in airstrikes. Do we need airstrikes in Path of Exile? Of course not. But what you are trying to say is IDENTICALLY fallacious, because it's based on the assumption of "this thing that worked in a totally different context is therefore automatically valid for implementation here."

So to repeat my earlier point: you are asking for a zero cost buff, and not exactly a small one either, which is a terrible idea because EVERYTHING in Path of Exile has an opportunity cost vis a vis, "limited number of support gems" or "requires this passive keystone and/or specific gear" and so on.

If melee aficionados had made a thread exactly like this wondering why Blood and Sand wasn't always active and selectable without requiring a skill gem or mana reservation, would you have felt their request reasonable? Because it's not, and neither is yours.
You sound upset. But, you're not offering a rational argument for *why* there should be an opportunity cost for making minions less awkward to manage then they have been and will continue to be, given current plans.

Re-stating this, awkward minion management should be the default gameplay experience because ... why?

Moving to what you wrote, the "airstrikes" analogy is a non sequitur. Blood & Sand is marginally better than your "airstrikes" analogy. B&S is obviously not something you'd expect to be inherent with other skills, in the way you'd expect that somebody skilled enough to create / summon something would have a good chance of being able to have it behave as the creator / summoner wants. B&S also doesn't take up a highly valuable gem slot on a character's main skill(s); instead, all it needs is an open gem slot anywhere and it has an inexpensive mana reservation cost.

The innate, default awkwardness connected to managing minions in POE isn't typical, compared to other games. Obviously the tech and other UI examples are out there to make managing minions a more pleasant experience. That's the issue here. If there's a balance issue brought about by managing minions becoming easier, then tweak damage numbers and let minion masters be, well, minion masters.

EnjoyTheJourney
Aug 26, 2019 06:02:21 AM

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karoollll2534 wrote:
No matter what you do, they are never happy.

once you give your hand they will ask for your whole arm.
this would happen eventually.
people will ask for more and more and more

MrsDeath_
Aug 26, 2019 08:58:09 AM

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MrsDeath_ wrote:
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karoollll2534 wrote:
No matter what you do, they are never happy.

once you give your hand they will ask for your whole arm.
this would happen eventually.
people will ask for more and more and more
What are your arguments against making minion management as straightforward as other games*?

* Tech / UI examples exist, so that's clearly not an issue.

EnjoyTheJourney
Aug 26, 2019 14:52:37 PM

Well, GGG operates with mechanics they already have. Rather than having static skill that can be activated as basic attack, they chose to use the skill gem system.

I understand that and It puts an interesting choice to already gem starved summoner class. Compromises have to be made. Will be interesting to see how people will utilize remaining slots.

Marxone
Aug 26, 2019 15:35:12 PM

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Marxone wrote:
Well, GGG operates with mechanics they already have. Rather than having static skill that can be activated as basic attack, they chose to use the skill gem system.

I understand that and It puts an interesting choice to already gem starved summoner class. Compromises have to be made. Will be interesting to see how people will utilize remaining slots.
Melee was revised in part because players gave feedback about how melee in POE felt awkward compared to other games. Now melee skills and weapons work completely differently; all melee weapons and skills hit multiple targets now, by default. If that's not "a global buff for nothing", then what is?

Now they're making a pass at summoners. But, the gameplay experience of playing a summoner is not getting the same careful look as in the case of melee; if anything, the additional gems help to highlight how much more awkward managing minions is in POE than in most other games.

EnjoyTheJourney
Aug 26, 2019 15:40:21 PM

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Melee was revised in part because players gave feedback about how melee in POE felt awkward compared to other games. Now melee skills and weapons work completely differently; all melee weapons and skills hit multiple targets now, by default. If that's not "a global buff for nothing", then what is?

Now they're making a pass at summoners. But, the gameplay experience of playing a summoner is not getting the same careful look as in the case of melee; if anything, the additional gems help to highlight how much more awkward managing minions is in POE than in most other games.


You're continuing to miss the point completely, and probably deliberately.

Single-target melee hitting a small area by default wasn't something you can toggle on/off; it was a change to the way melee combat in POE works (and ALSO APPLIES TO MINIONS, btw). The minion version of this would be "all minions are now more aggressive," etc.

Being able to toggle aggressive vs defensive minion behavior at will is the zero-downside global buff we're talking about here, which is (I had thought) obviously an insane buff to all minion builds absolutely justifying taking a support gem slot.

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate
Aug 26, 2019 17:03:07 PM

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Melee was revised in part because players gave feedback about how melee in POE felt awkward compared to other games. Now melee skills and weapons work completely differently; all melee weapons and skills hit multiple targets now, by default. If that's not "a global buff for nothing", then what is?

Now they're making a pass at summoners. But, the gameplay experience of playing a summoner is not getting the same careful look as in the case of melee; if anything, the additional gems help to highlight how much more awkward managing minions is in POE than in most other games.


You're continuing to miss the point completely, and probably deliberately.

Single-target melee hitting a small area by default wasn't something you can toggle on/off; it was a change to the way melee combat in POE works (and ALSO APPLIES TO MINIONS, btw). The minion version of this would be "all minions are now more aggressive," etc.

Being able to toggle aggressive vs defensive minion behavior at will is the zero-downside global buff we're talking about here, which is (I had thought) obviously an insane buff to all minion builds absolutely justifying taking a support gem slot.
What specific gameplay advantages would this offer that justify calling this "an insane buff"?

I'm thinking that when entering Alva's missions it would be nice to easily switch a golem's stance so it doesn't attract 9,000,000 projectiles while the zone is still loading. What situations are you thinking about?

The issue here is how easy / awkward it is to manage minion builds. If summoners get stronger because minions are generally more aggressive (and easier to manage) then damage numbers can be tweaked to re-balance.

As for the melee change, you argued earlier that "global buffs for nothing" are unreasonable to request. When it's pointed out that melee received such a buff, you've switched topics to whether or not a toggle is involved.

EnjoyTheJourney
Aug 26, 2019 17:16:13 PM
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