Forum Index Feedback and Suggestions In 2019, Diablo 3 and Path of Exile are more alike than you realize.

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gibbousmoon wrote:
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Baharoth15 wrote:
Nobody is forced to trade and make the fotm to play the game, in fact the game is balanced around NOT doing that, it's balanced in such a way that guys like me can still do all content without trading and without meta skills.


The skill use stats for every League which uses a timer-based mechanic suggest otherwise.

And no one is surprised: There are many builds which are fundamentally incompatible with certain timer-based league mechanics. It doesn't mean they are necessarily underpowered (though they usually are, which is a secondary problem). They just don't play well with DPS checks.


Skill useage stats say jackshit in a community that want's everything immediately without any effort. Ofc they abuse those skills, many of them probably couldn't even play the game anymore without an overpowered meta skill at this point. Back in the day i also had a difficult time learning to play Starcraft for real online after being used to play with cheatcodes in Singleplayer.

Baharoth15
Aug 21, 2019 16:20:35 PM

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vio wrote:


easy peasy

1) get their streamers to stop making build recommendations
2) get rid of tools that allow easy copying and sharing of builds to make certain builds a mystery again which are worth discovering instead of copying, just employ the guy who ... upps


Are you suggestion to bring the game back to early 2014?

Keeping players in dark does not make any decision matter more or less. It makes the game a lot less accessible though for new players who are helping to fund further development. So, unless you are prepared to start spending a lot of $, you better not be asking for stupid shit like this.

People shared builds before Twitch streamers became popular. We did not need PoB, we could still use shitty skill tree on this web site and these forums to make guides. GGG heavily relies on motivated 3rd parties to do a lot of work for them--wiki, trading, PoB, Youtube and Twitch promotion. Are you asking for all of this to be removed?

Also, let's not pretend that playing PoE and creating a build is a rocket science. PoE allows for unlimited freedom but there are hard constraints put on the performance so majority of builds would still be similar to basic blueprint and only differences will be in minor details. If there are no public sources of information and people do not share this info on various channels, this game will be long lost in the history of games noone cares about.

Baron01
Aug 21, 2019 16:37:51 PM

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Baron01 wrote:
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vio wrote:


easy peasy

1) get their streamers to stop making build recommendations
2) get rid of tools that allow easy copying and sharing of builds to make certain builds a mystery again which are worth discovering instead of copying, just employ the guy who ... upps


Are you suggestion to bring the game back to early 2014?

Keeping players in dark does not make any decision matter more or less. It makes the game a lot less accessible though for new players who are helping to fund further development. So, unless you are prepared to start spending a lot of $, you better not be asking for stupid shit like this.

People shared builds before Twitch streamers became popular. We did not need PoB, we could still use shitty skill tree on this web site and these forums to make guides. GGG heavily relies on motivated 3rd parties to do a lot of work for them--wiki, trading, PoB, Youtube and Twitch promotion. Are you asking for all of this to be removed?

Also, let's not pretend that playing PoE and creating a build is a rocket science. PoE allows for unlimited freedom but there are hard constraints put on the performance so majority of builds would still be similar to basic blueprint and only differences will be in minor details. If there are no public sources of information and people do not share this info on various channels, this game will be long lost in the history of games noone cares about.


first i wasn't really serious, that's why the "easy peasy"

second, the double impact of skilled analysts of the game finding and spoiling the best builds and pathofbuilding allowing to simply copy complete build setups trivialised the game and reduced the process of getting a build to copying a simple url.

it killed half the appeal of the game. everybody is playing the same setups now. demands for certain items explodes dependent on which streamer recommends it's usage.

implications are huge, ggg obviously didn't see it coming.
and yes, making builds used to be rocket science. now it's not

vio
Aug 21, 2019 22:06:31 PM

I still think adding Ascendancies was the biggest mistake ever in this game.

they seemed cool at first but in reality they pretty much killed the "role" in this game... or atleast killed a few skilltypes for other classes (minions/traps).

maybe Necro gets "gutted" and offers just basic thing for minions and we can actually play minions on other classes.

their damage is almost fine as is but their survivability and movement speed is not.

non-Sabo trapbuilds? lol

you get the point.

PyleWarlord
Aug 21, 2019 22:52:40 PM

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PyleWarlord wrote:
I still think adding Ascendancies was the biggest mistake ever in this game.

they seemed cool at first but in reality they pretty much killed the "role" in this game... or atleast killed a few skilltypes for other classes (minions/traps).

maybe Necro gets "gutted" and offers just basic thing for minions and we can actually play minions on other classes.

their damage is almost fine as is but their survivability and movement speed is not.

non-Sabo trapbuilds? lol

you get the point.


hey now! my first build this league was a Cheiftain bear trapper D:

I would like to see more function over damage in ascendancy's tho.

SilentSymphony
Aug 21, 2019 23:00:14 PM

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mark1030 wrote:
If decisions don’t matter, why do I keep seeing posts from people who made bad decisions saying they keep dying because the game is broken?


Ah, that's simple to explain.

70% of those posts are people who don't know overly well how to build their character.
20% choose an off-meta build, hence they'll run into troubles someone else won't even see.
10% complain about the part that the difficulty spikes suddenly... which is a very valid point I'll go a bit further into in a moment.

So, for the last 10% the part is the following: They go in a map which they've run 500 times before without issue, though this time something is different. There is a... hrmm.. let's say extra hp, speed-buffed corrupted blood red beast in there (I know, not the matter in 3.8 anymore, but a current example, I'll provide one for 3.8 afterwards as well).
Now, obviously that person will die with a high chance, not because they wouldn't be able to handle this with a bit of defensive play-style or by changing their tactics regarding to the content... but instead because they are simply surprised. It's like a horror-game providing a jump-scare at which you have to react immediately or your character dies... but doing so anytime in the game.. or not.. just randomly. This means there is no INCENTIVE to prepare for it, nobody expects such a situation.

The same situation which can happen with Legion-content as well. Namely the templars. One of them spawns a light-disc which fires projectiles, at times this disc is fired directly underneath your character and... each projectile doing damage individually. While usually they do 1-2k EHP if you stand on top of it the chances you'll nearly instantly die from it are high, 15k EHP? Melts away, 20k? Maybe... 25k? You should be half-way safe... maybe.

You see the issue with why it is 'broken'? That's not a good design, such things need to be taken care of.

As an example for another game, in this case Grim Dawn. There exist so called 'Nemesis' bosses. As soon as you reach max negative reputation with an enemy faction they can spawn. They spawn randomly on the world... BUT! They are guaranteed to exist somewhere in one of the faction-specific areas. You KNOW they will pop up because of it, even if they are extremely deadly. You're not surprised if it happens, you are prepared mentally.

That's the vast difference between there and PoE for example.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that. Sure their balancing sucks, but even if they were good at it, it's impossible to make all skills equally good, there will always be a best build, no matter how good they are at balancing. And all the "my goal this league is to make as many exalts (or mirrors or HHs or whatever) as possible" guys WILL play that one build. And looking at this forum at least the vocal majority here is exactly that kind of player.


Actually... you can.
The player wants to enjoy a game, for this they want to feel rewarded and have a sense of progress of some kind. In FPS this is getting better, being on 'top' of a game or a ladder. In an RPG this means upgrading the gear on your character, making fights easier or managing to get access to new content via doing so.

If the developers incentive is forced to a very limited amount of builds, making those 'feel' a lot more smooth then others... well, obviously people will take that choice. Often this results in early 'burn-out' though as the content can be trivialized quite a bit earlier... and after uber-elder there simply is nothing proper to do anymore. Also the progression before uber-elder at times is very very slow and tedious, it doesn't feel 'fluid' with a large portion of builds. Hence people tend to choose those which provide a 'fluid' progression as it won't kill their mood in trying to reach all content available.

It's the task of a developer to provide a fluid progression as well as the amount of content in regards to the time they want to keep the game 'alive'. Something which GGG has issues with handling.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Honestly this whole mentality is so fucked up imo. The crowed always goes the easiest way available, playing trade simulator to make the best build available instanly to farm the lowest Tier maps available and then complains about this game being too easy and a trade simulator like wtf? Their means are certainly not ideal but it should be clear that GGG is trying to deter players from playing trade simulator by making trading a drag but the players still do it anyway and then complain that it's not easy enough.


Obviously they do, that's a given.
If you play Dark Souls 3... will you do it only with the broken sword you get at the beginning? Sure you CAN do it. Bit it'll feel tedious and not very rewarding, stressful at times. Unless you're challenging yourself to do something very specific it doesn't make sense. To beat the game you'll try to take every method available and beat it.

If you would see the strongest weapon of the game right after the first boss... would it be enjoyable then? Probably not for long. Sure you'll progress quicker and everything will be easier... but you won't get the enjoyment out of it which a 'properly' designed game brings.

This is the current situation with PoE itemization. As every single item in the game is available LATEST at lvl 80 (which yellow maps if you're quick) the balance of provided gear versus needed gear is skewed heavily. Also getting the proper gear in the first place can be a large drag, since the amount of different drops is so big choosing the right ones is a literal chore. Should I pick up those rare boots now? They're cluttering my mini-inventory though. What about this weapon? I might need something from the base... but the chance to get an upgrade is 1 in 5000 for picking them. That stops people from behaving how they are 'supposed' to do.
Hence the drop-rework of 4.0 is something we need... hopefully a PROPER rework rather then just adjusting numbers (as GGG loves to do).

The game isn't paced very well, the mechanics are absolutely fantastic... but the pace of the game is a mess.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I dare say you don't need a meta char to beat any sort of timer in this game. Though i guess i can't really talk about Legion Content as i've never played it. But everything currently available in Standard can be done with any char, not just the latest FOTM. And you certainly don't need any specific gimmicks to stay alive.


For Legion you NEED a meta-character to even be able to interact with it in any meaningful way. ED/Contagion to open stuff very quick or a character with any other large AoE. If you want to only open specific stuff 300%+ MS is mandatory to even SEE the content before the timer runs out, not even mentioning to DECIDE which stuff you want to unlock.

This is heavily detrimental. And also you NEED specific gimmicks to stay alive by now in Legion as well. This league changed a lot about the existing stuff in the game, at least if you don't want to simply 'leave it on the side' and get the feeling of missing out (Fomo, or 'Fear of missing out'-effect)

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gibbousmoon wrote:
Spoiler

For the record, most of what you describe are noob-unfriendly mechanics. That is not at all what I mean when I say "noobtrap."

A noobtrap is a game mechanic (be it a skill gem, or a notable node on the tree, or even an entire Ascendancy class) which is represented, by the game, via its affordances, to be as viable as any other comparable gem, notable, or class--to someone who is not experienced with the game.

As such, noobtraps are a form of player deception. The game indicates to you, "Yes, this really ought to work," but what you should have done is get your information from the internet, not from the game, because the internet will be far more honest with you regarding the relative abilities of all these "choices" the game offers you. This is the definition of "meta." It's also why creating a deliberate meta is a dick move. (Sorry, GGG, but it really is a dick move on your part.)

That said, much of this is peripheral to the point of this thread, since even people who are aware of where the noobtraps are still have most of their (otherwise viable) choices crippled by League mechanics and/or insane (= >10x power differential) imbalances.


That's a really nice explanation for it, thanks for that!

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I honestly don't get this point. So GGG nerfs the most powerful skill of a league after the league and it remains "viable" and you call that "destroying choice"? Like what? I would understand if you had atleast argued they made it completely unviable but like this?


First of all, Winter Orb was one of the most viable ones. You don't see that anymore.
Not only has the skill itself lost viability (It's still viable though! Don't get me wrong there, the skill itself by the current situation is 'fine' definitely) but also removed the interaction with the marks. Hence casters have a massive downside to survivability which can only be made up by sheer amount of ES + leech. And that's the issue.

Also going over to 'Melee' the most viable choice was Molten Strike. This one became absolutely crippled. Not only has the DPS been reduced to 1/3 (Ancestral Call doesn'r add any balls) but it also need to hit a mob directly to cause your personal attacks to hit. Hence you're still forced to use Ancestral Call but you don't get any form of upside from it, at worst it even spreads out your damage to a degree it's fairly useless at times.

That's what 'destroying choice' is regarding towards. And that's sadly true.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Not to mention that, at least in my opinion, this community tends to freak out far more about nerfs than is actually justified. If i just look at Molten Strike which i've played on my chieftain since incursion, it got nerfed i believe twice since then.


The first nerf was absolutely fine. The second wasn't.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I will admit that i haven't tried stuff like Heavy Strike or Glacial Hammer yet but i am rather sure you can make those work as well. Won't be the easy peasy no brainer Cyclone level of gameplay but still good enough for any content.


With Glacial Hammer you even have troubles finishing Alva in red maps. Single-target is decent, anything else is utter garbage. Simply not even a choice with an array of 'multi-purpose' skills available by now.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Nobody is forced to trade and make the fotm to play the game, in fact the game is balanced around NOT doing that, it's balanced in such a way that guys like me can still do all content without trading and without meta skills.


Absolutely true, I'm not forced to trade to make a build viable.
Though I am if I want to create a top-tier one. I'll need fossils, resonators and bases. I can't provide myself reliably with the amount of needed fossils or even resonators, also ilvl 86 bases (especially elder/shaper) aren't easily obtained, or well... at least not the one you might need at a time.

Hence I am forced to trade for those things, and that experience is utter nightmare. Having 30 ex in my stash means nothing if I would need 5 hours to empty that out just to get started with a single crafting session which takes me... 10 minutes? 20 at most?
That's a big concern as after uber-elder you either 'perfect' your character (which is made ridiculously hard because of the current iteration of trade) or you simply stop. For me it's generally stopping at that point because it becomes too tedious to do. Not because I lack the ability for it... but rather my time is worth more then waiting on people to reply maybe if they might be free under the right circumstances.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Skill useage stats say jackshit in a community that want's everything immediately without any effort. Ofc they abuse those skills, many of them probably couldn't even play the game anymore without an overpowered meta skill at this point. Back in the day i also had a difficult time learning to play Starcraft for real online after being used to play with cheatcodes in Singleplayer.


I have to say I'm usually someone going with the 'meta' to a degree. I enjoy interacting with league-mechanics first and foremost. If I have to pick between 'Oh, but your experience with the mechanic will be utter garbage' or 'yes, that's how it seemingly was designed to be' I'll go with the later. And that's usually a meta-choice.

I'll love to see someone without minions, frost wall or anything similar to help keep the mobs at bay interacting with the Blight. It'll be very entertaining to watch for me and very frustrating for the one trying it. Ed/Contagion will this league be utterly pointless. Cyclone will still shine brightly as can be (unless the patch-notes bring massive nerfs... I half-way expect it) and off-meta builds like heavy-strike or dual-strike will be utter garbage. Well... some spells will be a downer as well, Divine Ire for example will be fairly useless we can assume.

Kulze
Aug 21, 2019 23:48:55 PM

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that.

Of course you can, that's what we are doing here.
Grossly pushing archetypes to the front like GGG has been doing id kind of disgusting honestly, it's completely against the idea or balancing the game in the first place.


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gibbousmoon wrote:
Go talk to Alva with your Glacial Hammer build. Go on. We'll wait.

I could easily do that, do you want me to record a run to show you next weekb? (not home atm)


That said, I agree with the thread, power creep kind of allows anytging to kinda work, but the ridiculous potential power disparity between builds kind of invalidates most choices, because challenges and economy.

Fruz
Aug 22, 2019 14:51:11 PM

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Fruz wrote:
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Baharoth15 wrote:

Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that.

Of course you can, that's what we are doing here.
Grossly pushing archetypes to the front like GGG has been doing id kind of disgusting honestly, it's completely against the idea or balancing the game in the first place.


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gibbousmoon wrote:
Go talk to Alva with your Glacial Hammer build. Go on. We'll wait.

I could easily do that, do you want me to record a run to show you next weekb? (not home atm)


That said, I agree with the thread, power creep kind of allows anytging to kinda work, but the ridiculous potential power disparity between builds kind of invalidates most choices, because challenges and economy.


I don't disagree with anything you said (save perhaps for SSF scenarios, which I can't use when making feedback of this nature, since the game is balanced around trade).

But yes, I'd love to hear how you get on with Glacial Hammer in a red map Incursion. You don't need to record it; just share your experience. (I trust you.) I'm curious if it would actually work with maximal investment.

gibbousmoon
Aug 22, 2019 15:02:12 PM

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Fruz wrote:
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Baharoth15 wrote:

Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that.

Of course you can, that's what we are doing here.
Grossly pushing archetypes to the front like GGG has been doing id kind of disgusting honestly, it's completely against the idea or balancing the game in the first place.


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gibbousmoon wrote:
Go talk to Alva with your Glacial Hammer build. Go on. We'll wait.

I could easily do that, do you want me to record a run to show you next weekb? (not home atm)


That said, I agree with the thread, power creep kind of allows anytging to kinda work, but the ridiculous potential power disparity between builds kind of invalidates most choices, because challenges and economy.


Ok, let me rephrase so even you can understand. What i was saying is: "It doesn't make sense to blame GGG for the choices of the playerbase."

Sure their balancing is bad, the differences between builds are much bigger than they need to be. But at the end of the day it doesn't even matter.
If one build takes 4 seconds to kill shaper/clear a map/do the league content and the other needs 2 seconds, guess which one will be played more? It's the players choice to always want to have the best and fastest build to get the most rewards in the shortest amount of time. Just like it's their choice to spend days and weeks every league with trading despite GGGs efforts to deter them from doing that.

No, amount of balancing and balancing skill will ever change that. I've seen hundreds of metas in dozens of games, some of them very well balanced and there was always that one strategy/build that was slightly better than the rest and was played to the death by 90% of the players.

If there are 50 builds that can do all content comfortably and the playerbase decides to only use the 2 fastest ones then they have no right to complain about meta, THEY MAKE THE META. No, one else. If they were forced to play those 2 builds because the others couldn't do all the content i would agree, but that's not the case. You said it yourself, even shitty glacial hammer can beat that "dps check" so it's not like your missing out on something using that. The only difference is that it takes 20 seconds to do an incursion and not 5 and thats apparently already too much of a hassle for most people here.

Baharoth15
Aug 22, 2019 15:55:48 PM

Its usually 2-3 builds that are viable per new content release

MasterTBC
Aug 22, 2019 16:51:54 PM
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