Forum Index Feedback and Suggestions In 2019, Diablo 3 and Path of Exile are more alike than you realize.

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Baharoth15 wrote:
Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that. Sure their balancing sucks, but even if they were good at it, it's impossible to make all skills equally good, there will always be a best build, no matter how good they are at balancing. And all the "my goal this league is to make as many exalts (or mirrors or HHs or whatever) as possible" guys WILL play that one build. And looking at this forum at least the vocal majority here is exactly that kind of player.


I think part of the crowd that simply goes for fotm is doing so because they understand that playing something else is likely going to be heavily punished by the game.

Qiu_Qiu
Aug 21, 2019 12:03:01 PM

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Baharoth15 wrote:
Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that.

Of course I can, or you're saying that buffing the only class archetype that can spare the time during combat to click at things is some kind of a coincidence?

raics
Aug 21, 2019 12:07:37 PM

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raics wrote:
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Baharoth15 wrote:
Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that.

Of course I can, or you're saying that buffing the only class archetype that can spare the time during combat to click at things is some kind of a coincidence?
I remember when there were complaints about league mechanics that weren't minion friendly so this seems like a good thing?

I can see existing Damage Over Time builds being able to interact with the turrets while still doing damage despite those builds not being the focus of the league.

VolcanoElixir
Aug 21, 2019 12:18:16 PM

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Qiu_Qiu wrote:
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Baharoth15 wrote:
Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that. Sure their balancing sucks, but even if they were good at it, it's impossible to make all skills equally good, there will always be a best build, no matter how good they are at balancing. And all the "my goal this league is to make as many exalts (or mirrors or HHs or whatever) as possible" guys WILL play that one build. And looking at this forum at least the vocal majority here is exactly that kind of player.


I think part of the crowd that simply goes for fotm is doing so because they understand that playing something else is likely going to be heavily punished by the game.


Well from my point of view that "understanding" is just wrong from the get go. You don't get punished for playing non meta, you only get to enjoy the game for longer.

Honestly this whole mentality is so fucked up imo. The crowed always goes the easiest way available, playing trade simulator to make the best build available instanly to farm the lowest Tier maps available and then complains about this game being too easy and a trade simulator like wtf? Their means are certainly not ideal but it should be clear that GGG is trying to deter players from playing trade simulator by making trading a drag but the players still do it anyway and then complain that it's not easy enough.

Baharoth15
Aug 21, 2019 12:55:17 PM

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VolcanoElixir wrote:
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raics wrote:
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Baharoth15 wrote:
Sure but you can't really blame GGG for that.

Of course I can, or you're saying that buffing the only class archetype that can spare the time during combat to click at things is some kind of a coincidence?
I remember when there were complaints about league mechanics that weren't minion friendly so this seems like a good thing?

I can see existing Damage Over Time builds being able to interact with the turrets while still doing damage despite those builds not being the focus of the league.


I think we should also take economic results into account.

The pattern GGG adopted is clearly "the China model" and this is relevant because China got the game much later then we did so it was a good testrun of how to solve increased complexity vs player market pull.

I think its easy to forget some of us have been here from the beginning so we dont even aknowledge the complexity of the game that we take for granted.(burden of knowledge effect)

I would have two contention with this model

1) the power of the pushed archetypes itself, does it serve the community to give them an "easy out" route and wouldn't a "pre-made functional build that can still fail" be just as informative in the sense of how to construct a build.

2) because of 1) the power differential with other builds becomes a serious phsychological hindrance to people familiar with the complexity of the game.

So i think the model serves its purpose in the way that it can provide people a template and ease them into the game and its complexity, however i think it does it at to high of a cost for people who understand the base complexity.

For example i think "noobtrap" as used by gibbous is sort of unfair, in the sense that a non-noob can most likely create a qaulified build out of all skills within PoE nowadays if he is willing to take a hit on some efficiency axis.(speed,defense,offense)

But the inherent power of any of those axises means that even giving a small percentage of leeway on any of them can have serious experiential consequences in game-play. If there was an easy fix for this i think GGG would be all ears.

Peace,

-Boem-

Boem
Aug 21, 2019 13:00:19 PM

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Baharoth15 wrote:
Well from my point of view that "understanding" is just wrong from the get go. You don't get punished for playing non meta, you only get to enjoy the game for longer.


I'm not talking about grind time in maps, I am rather talking about the game outright failing you because you don't have an ultra-fast character to clear the timer, or you aren't tanky enough because you didn't take a high number of originally-gimmicky-but-now-mandatory defenses.

Qiu_Qiu
Aug 21, 2019 13:12:10 PM

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Qiu_Qiu wrote:
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Baharoth15 wrote:
Well from my point of view that "understanding" is just wrong from the get go. You don't get punished for playing non meta, you only get to enjoy the game for longer.


I'm not talking about grind time in maps, I am rather talking about the game outright failing you because you don't have an ultra-fast character to clear the timer, or you aren't tanky enough because you didn't take a high number of originally-gimmicky-but-now-mandatory defenses.


I dare say you don't need a meta char to beat any sort of timer in this game. Though i guess i can't really talk about Legion Content as i've never played it. But everything currently available in Standard can be done with any char, not just the latest FOTM. And you certainly don't need any specific gimmicks to stay alive.

Baharoth15
Aug 21, 2019 13:20:36 PM

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Boem wrote:

But the inherent power of any of those axises means that even giving a small percentage of leeway on any of them can have serious experiential consequences in game-play. If there was an easy fix for this i think GGG would be all ears.


easy peasy

1) get their streamers to stop making build recommendations
2) get rid of tools that allow easy copying and sharing of builds to make certain builds a mystery again which are worth discovering instead of copying, just employ the guy who ... upps

vio
Aug 21, 2019 13:52:01 PM

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Baharoth15 wrote:
I dare say you don't need a meta char to beat any sort of timer in this game. Though i guess i can't really talk about Legion Content as i've never played it. But everything currently available in Standard can be done with any char, not just the latest FOTM. And you certainly don't need any specific gimmicks to stay alive.


Go talk to Alva with your Glacial Hammer build. Go on. We'll wait.

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Boem wrote:
For example i think "noobtrap" as used by giddous is sort of unfair, in the sense that a non-noob can most likely create a qaulified build out of all skills within PoE nowadays if he is willing to take a hit on some efficiency axis.(speed,defense,offense)


"Giddous" is apparently the phonetic pronunciation of my name. Good to know.

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Baharoth15 wrote:
Well from my point of view that "understanding" is just wrong from the get go. You don't get punished for playing non meta, you only get to enjoy the game for longer.


If the absurd power differentials (and sorry, but anything greater than 10X is, without question, absurd) only led to massive imbalances in economic gain, you three would all have a stronger argument.

But GGG consistently insists on releasing new league material which replaces "optimal build" with "viable build." This is what destroys choice. Nothing else.

If the power imbalances were only about economic disparities, they would still be well-worthy of criticism, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that GGG is destroying the element of choice in its game.

gibbousmoon
Aug 21, 2019 14:00:07 PM

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Baharoth15 wrote:

I dare say you don't need a meta char to beat any sort of timer in this game. Though i guess i can't really talk about Legion Content as i've never played it. But everything currently available in Standard can be done with any char, not just the latest FOTM. And you certainly don't need any specific gimmicks to stay alive.


This. And as someone who has made several different fully Legion-viable builds, I can confirm that it also holds true for Monoliths and Domains.

I would bet money though that the flaming of your well-reasoned and objectively accurate statement will have begun before I ever get a chance to post this, because this community is filled with a lot of people who seem born with a tragic lack of self-awareness. I've got a couple of them on my friends list, and from talking to them I have spotted a cyclical pattern they get trapped in league after league:

Spoiler
Step 1 - They find and follow a "league starter" or "budget" build guide and enjoy meager success.

Step 2 - They try to make their own build using the currency from their previous build, and it fails horribly. Sometimes this is a modification to the build and not a new character entirely, but their lack of game knowledge leads to significant problems with the build's damage, defenses, or both.

Step 3 - They get angry/discouraged about the lack of success they feel entitled to, and re-modify their build to something they KNOW will work by copying a guide posted somewhere. Because every single other person is doing the same thing they are, all of their gear is significantly more expensive than is warranted (the Mathil effect, etc).

Step 4 - A repeat of Step 2.

Step 5 - Angry rants here and/or on the subreddit, because OP ONE SHOTS and PAY TO WIN MECHANICS have created a situation where ONLY ONE BUILD IS VIABLE. Furious at the lack of success with a build they designed and frustrated with the absurd price hikes to all of the Meta Build Gear, they either
5A - quit playing until the next league and the process begins anew, or
5B - begrudgingly play the same Metaslave build as all of the other sheep, but never stop resenting GGG and make weekly TenCent conspiracy posts in the forum.


It's very, very rare for any of these people to break free of this cycle by realizing that the problem is THEM and buckling down to actually learn more about the game and overcome a challenge in front of them. But GGG isn't entirely innocent here; the lack of a death log makes it significantly harder than it should be to figure out what killed you. I mean, if nothing else they could put a few words underneath the names of enemies describing what kinds of damage they deal if non-physical, so after you die you can mouse over them and see, "oh, that guy does chaos damage, that's good to know."

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate
Aug 21, 2019 14:17:10 PM
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