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...seriously? why do you think +1 curse was mentioned so many times?

ffs...


"
robmafia wrote:
ffs, a chest with just the +1 spectre mod and +1 curse is already VASTLY more OP, even omitting 4 other affixes.


"
robmafia wrote:
gee, i wonder why a +1 spectre chest with 120+ life and/or more defenses and/or resistances and/or stats and/or +1 curse and/or etc is more powerful.


and those are just from the previous page.

robmafia
Aug 16, 2019 07:56:56 AM

"
Shieldbreaker wrote:

A decent fix could be doing what the +1 totem did - making it a shaper/elder mod? Though your idea of just making minion nodes always drop the chest armour would help a ton. Still would need to make the minion nodes a bit more common, in my opinion.

EDIT: Also, making +1 spectre a craft mod would make +1 curse and +1 spectre chests require 3 crafting mods, as opposed to the current 1.


^this

and @ those against the topic in general.

Not everyone uses a curse and even if i did i wouldn't need to craft it on my body armour to get an additional curse, I don't care about some metaslave build that uses the same garbage monster as 3 patches ago, I don't use solar guards, slave drivers, fire eaters and every other meta monster like every other spectre build who got their setup off the forum.

Im pushing for this for Build Diversity, I don't care about shaper dps, i dont need 700k dps to clear shaper/r-elder/uber-elder, maybe 200k at minimum.


"
Veerdna wrote:
Taking in consideration that the discussion about powercreep in spectres builds is still going, I tried to put a comparison between Vis Mortis and rare armour in PoB.

This is modified setup of the most viewed spectre summoner build on forum (simplified all abyss jewels and reconsider gems and curse setups for solar guards/ for the reference build guide is https://respoe.xyz/forum/view-thread/2181275 and has a bit over 1M views): https://pastebin.com/0V1NcRZP.

Here I have 2 gear setups with only body armour and flask difference. On kill mods for minions are disabled and boss is in shaper/guardian mode. Unholy Might from Vis Mortis is simulated on flask and disabled in rare body armour setup. Second curse is obviously not calculated in Vis Mortis setup.


1m views, well i guess that makes me one of the 1% that makes my own builds every league that clear all the content just fine, so the amount of views means nothing to me and the fact that its a build off the forum is even less respectable for me, This isnt League of Legends, this is Path of Exile a game where builds can be as unique as the people playing on them.

Second curse is not calculated in vis mortis are you kidding me? Add in an amulet with +1 curse and get back to me if you really want to try and call that a significant upgrade or at any level an argument, additional curse on amulet is much easier to obtain than a spectre mod armour, throw a few vaal orbs on some gg amulets, easy peasy.

and 200 life increase(total hp on character)!?!? that's nothing, If the armour were anything like robmafia has been posting for pages now and the build in question were actually well balanced it would add a hell of a lot more than 200 life.

So +1 curse, and 200 life(after calcs), again the additional curse can be obtained on an amulet rather easily especially with double-corrupts these days and the amount of life there is hardly even worth mentioning.

Are there any real arguments here, anyone? Maybe some of this energy should be spent attacking the real power creep so that values across the board can be brought back within reason so that people can have things like this for reasons other than the meta-slave garbage that keeps getting brought up in here.

Thread recap of constructive posts.
Spoiler
Since a lot of posts have been lost behind many pages of fairly pointless argument here is a bunch of quotes of the constructive posts from the entire thread.

If i missed your post feel free to PM me, Though i've tried to not add quotes of fighting rather constructive input, Thank you to everyone both for and against the topic at hand for discussing it in a constructive manner.

The OP:
"
Shieldbreaker wrote:
Greetings!

This is just a friendly reminder that rare +1 spectre chest, a fairly necessary item for many summoners, is, probably, the hardest to get item in-game. Can easily take hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to get one.

Almost any other build can chaos spam and exalt slam, use prophecies, divination cards, farm shaper/elder influenced areas, grind out uber elders and so on to get their high end chest pieces.

For summoners, if you are life based, or even if you just wish to have an alternative to Vis Mortis, it is basically IMPOSSIBLE. I would kill to only have to find an elder ilvl 85 vaal regalia and craft it with prime resonators.

Instead, you have to Delve, one of the hardest to access contents in the game. I have reached depth 500, have only met two necromancer/aura item nodes, 0 of which dropped a +1 spectre chest, let alone on a good base, let alone with solid mods.

So, for a fairly mediocre-to-ok build (summoners), to have a build-enabling item, you need to spend like 1000 hours+ just to get a crafting base? That you can't fossil or essence craft, so you will probably ruin it by annul+exalt slam, and will, most likely, have to spend another 1000+ hours getting one? And if ever Synthesis/crafting implicits goes core, that will also be unavailable for summoners for chest piece?

Just make the 'Contains necromancer and aura items' node have a chest +1 spectre crafting recipe. If not brutal enough, have an alternative, minion room 3 in incursion that drops a unique-something, combines with several exalt value vial from omnitech to grant a rare chest a crafted +1 spectre, or something. The current system is broken.

Several hour grind, at most, like 100 hours for any build to get a solid chest piece. In 1000 hours, most builds can probably get a mirror-worthy 6x t1 chest. Not spectre sumnmoners. Doesn't seem right.

Thank you for your attention!

Do you believe that it is okay for summoners to have to do x10 or even more the effort, to get a high-end chest armour piece?


"
lompad wrote:
Agreed. Should be made a bit easier to get i think.


"
Pizzarugi wrote:
You can't be upset about not having it if you try and not get it. That what I've gotten used to doing, and I make due with my 3 spectres.

That said, considering the +1 totem craft was slightly improved to be more accessible, it sure would be nice if the +1 spectre mod was turned into a craft mod as well, even if I may not be able to afford to install it.


"
Lilar wrote:
Can agree on that one. With things like +1 totem being so easily available one should definitly consider making spectres chest more available,


"
Suhuy wrote:
Seems fair enought.


"
Shieldbreaker wrote:
Thank you for the support!

An idea I came up with, what if +1 spectre as an expensive craft (1-2 exalted orbs), and unlocked from mastermind? Would still take a long time to get it, and be expensive, but at least would be doable in under 2000 hours.


"
Pizzarugi wrote:

"
Just make the 'Contains necromancer and aura items' node have a chest +1 spectre crafting recipe. If not brutal enough, have an alternative, minion room 3 in incursion that drops a unique-something, combines with several exalt value vial from omnitech to grant a rare chest a crafted +1 spectre, or something. The current system is broken.


I'm wholly in agreement with this.


"
robmafia wrote:
honestly, i think +1 spectre is too strong to have a crafting recipe.

that said, i think a lot of the betrayal crafts are too strong and shouldn't exist, either.


"
andreicde wrote:

I don't care about snapshotting, I'm referring to the whole +1 specter chest. Spectre summoners are extremely squishy, therefore they could use some additional defenses in the current meta where GGG keeps buffing mobs/always caring about speed metas.


"
Saltychipmunk wrote:
It should just be added to the fossil craft pool for chests as a rare mod.

You cannot make it a craft recipe because unlike +1 zombie or +1 skeleton (which are both minor or inconsistent damage boosts thanks to melee minion pathing)

A single spectre is a massive multiplier for damage.

It would easily be the kind of craft mod that takes 2 exalts to make if it were one.

It would also be the only chest mod summoners would use as spectres have utility in pretty much every summoner build you can fit them in .


there is a reason why vismortis is an otherwise shit chest when you remove the + spectre mod


"
Saltychipmunk wrote:

bound fossils are also random, I never said that the spectre mod would be common.

the issue with craft recipes is that you can slap them on anything at the end of the process. So even if 2 exa sounds expensive . if you just throw +1 spectre on a 15 exa chest .. you saved a TON of money.

if it were bound fossils you would need to worry about having a good chest along with hitting the spectre mod.


"
Shieldbreaker wrote:

I know how hard it is to get +1 curse chest, took me about 120-150 Betrayal encounters, so without any trading or prophecies/sextants, can do it in 40-50 days easily just from dailies alone. If you only log in to do Jun daily, can get it in about 4-5h of grind.

Spectre chest is about 200-300 times harder to get. And you can't craft it, and can't get it on a base of ilvl higher than 83, or shaper/elder base, and so on. Assuming the odds of highest tier body armour being 1/10, the spectre chest is 2000-3000 times harder to get. Add in the low chances of good mods, the near impossibility to craft...hence the INSANITY in the title.

That being said, crafting +1 curse is 3 exalted, most expensive craft in-game, so I think if +1 spectre does become a craft option, it should also be 3 exalted.


"
I agree with the OP as a spectre main that has slowly been encouraged not to play my favorite class for a large variety of issues unrelated to this topic.

But one of those issues that is the OPs post literally, its far too difficult to obtain this armour.

i tend to run 2x midnight bargain, my life sucks enough without this insanity, I did not delve nearly as much as the OP in Synthesis league but i did delve a decent amount and never came across a single minion node.

I'm not really angry about how complicated it is to get one of these armours but compared to getting a headhunter i could probably get a couple of those every league much easier than this armour which is still bound to a heavy RNG roll and if you try to anull useless mods you risk losing an item that is almost literally irreplaceable in a leagues lifespan

Edit: i do have one question to ask here though, say that GGG does listen and makes the armour easier to get, perhaps to the point that they are available on the market at a reasonable price.. what happens to vis mortis? does the unholy might still offer enough reason to ever use it.

all changes are going to have a broad effect generally in this game.


"
TreeOfDead wrote:
im agree on that one suggesion

IF like +1 totem being SO easily available WHY should NOT making spectres chest more available? Like rly WTF?

Also STOP NERF SPECTRES!


"
pphnx wrote:

After betrayel players were able to craft op items that can never even imagine before.

They wanted kidney for 370+ pdps jewelled foil in incursion now everyone is hanging around with 450+pdps multimod jewelled foils.

You can get the base for 3-4ex. Jewelled Foil with only one mod. prob dictator's

https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Legion/qv2nzvHg

Or you can buy 6L short bow with just one mod (+1 level gem) for 1-1.5ex
bow for ed/contag

But you cant do that for +1 spectre armor. Bcs its the rarest mod and only one drop area in the entire game chests with +1 spectre (no other mods) starts with 20ex.



"
pphnx wrote:

I'm comparing weapon and chest pieces bcs these are the items that makkes differences.(not mandatory bu good to have) In melee builds dps of the weapon and in summoner builds +1 spectre chest piece make difference.

ex
450+ pdps weapon is not mandatory but good to have (porbably 400pdps would be enough for all content)

+1 spec on boots is not a good to have. it is mandatory. its nearly cheap. easy to craft with (bound pristine on two-tonned boots)
+%90 minion damage is not good to have it is mandatory. its cheap.

Ok lets talk about rare chest piecees of cyclone and summoner builds.

good to have (better than belly of the beast) rare chest piece for cyclone build: (pristine serrated on astral plate not very hard to craft) maim, mana cost flat and % life
https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Legion/X0Dgl4UP
starts with 4ex. with nice life mods.


good to have (better than vis mortis) +1 spectre rare armor. (impossible to craft +1 spectre)
https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Legion/YgX97kIY

nice bases starts with 15 ex. If you want a real nice base to multimod you have to spend +25ex

cycolne stats (maim and mana cost) cost +3-4 ex more and craftable but +1 spectre mod costs +13-14 ex more and impossible to craft.

Thats the point.



"
icovex wrote:

In the POE crafting system, it's basically ridiculous.

Let's look on all crafting system of POE, it gives always several ways in all rare system to obtain possible suffix/prefix for the items, and only in case of +1 spectre to chests, it only drops. At least, based on my knowledge, there is no other modifiers in rare items like this.

I agree, that unique items can be only dropped from some locations, that's why they called "Unique", but rares is different story.

And again, i agree, that this is endgame item, and it should be still precious, and it should not be like crap always available, so for example, conditions that this exists only on elder/shaper body armours of item level 83+ would still make it very valuable. What if in next league there will be no delve? We should die in 1 unique item called Vis Mortis?


"

Totems average at about 4-5 max without the shield, With the boots and chest spectres average at about 4, With the shield 5-6 is your average totem count if you are fully dedicated without a 30% Life reservation UNAFFECTED by reservation nodes per spectre 5+ with midnight bargain on spectres.

With that logic here we'd have +7 totem builds to make it "fair" just so that a summoner could have 4 spectres without the vis mortis without jumping through hoops that honestly you could do for an ENTIRE LEAGUE and never stand a chance at actually finding this item.

Which i have done ^ in tandem with a group of 3-4 people trying for the entire synthesis league.

Lets also bring into play here the fact that when leaving the vis mortis you also lose minion damage and a powerful buff on kill for your spectres, The spectre body armour is random in its base and has to be anulled and heavily crafted to become actually useful, Combine this with the extreme rarity of it being obtainable in delve in literal months of farming and i've officially failed to see any point in the argument provided.



"
icovex wrote:

Let me say it in other way, for example. There is a very rare mod for the wand - 20% reduced Soul Cost of Vaal Skills, it is obtained through:

- Drop in the Delve
- Drop in the Legion
- Crafted through bloodstained fossil.

All of this ways are quite expensive, rare, weapon with this suffix are started from 80 chaos, crap weapons, valuable high tier weapons starting from 1 exalts, and you can receive it elder based/shaper based.

But still! This items are available in different ways to achieve, and not only drops. For some Vaal builds they are mandatory.

And if we will go on, we will find more rare suffixes/prefixes which still can be found in different ways. And this is how POE overall philosophy works, why exactly for "+1 Spectres" it should be different?

If i cannot craft it, i cannot use elder/shaper possible prefixes/suffixes, i cannot create interesting builds with other possible outcomes, for example arcana surge or maim... I need copypaste +1 spectre, multiple crafted modifiers, max life, some of the resistance and +1 to curses. Great and interesting.





"
pphnx wrote:

If a cyclone player can get 6L chest with :
attacks have -15 mana cons
+1 maim support
+100 max life
%8 max life
+may be some resist
(most of the time this is way better than 6L Belly)

With only 5-6 ex


Yea I want my goddamn +1 spectre rare chets at least under 10ex

For powercreep :
Stop it. I dont have a problem with that.
But if you dont make +1 spectre chest more accesible.



"
Veerdna wrote:
From a long time spectre summoner player:

4 spectres is absolutely not mandatory. However, if there exists a body armour with enough defences and +1 spectre, every spectre summoner will use it. Vis Mortis is absolute trash due to no flat life/low es and its offencive bonuses (unholy might and 15% minoin damage) are almost nothing compared to just +1 spectre. Top 3 spectres (IMO solaris guards, CFE and tukohama vanguards) have enough damage for you to just use 3 of them.

Thus, I think that +1 spectre rare armour should stay insanely rare. But current state is beyond absurd. It is the single hardest item ingame to aquire (probably including shaped uniques), because it is not targetfarmable (like hh), craftable (like dex stacking bows or 1000+ es chests) or even chancable (even skyforth, which is not targetfarmable, could be chanced with approximately 12-15K chances). In addition, it's extremely difficult to craft afterwards. Yes, it's a big upgrade and definetely not needed, but it doesn't create such powercreep to be that insane to aquire. For example, maximum es on multimoded vaal regalia with +1 spectre is 515 which is only around 120 more than perfect Vis Mortis. And crafted life on body armour couldn't exceed 113 (with no curse as a prefix, 85 with such). Addind that resists will not exceed a total of 80, we could summarize that an upgrade over Vis Mortis is nothing too impressive for the perfect endgame item (compare to whatever endgame op shaper opal rings, dex stacking bows, insane es chests, melee body armours and ridiculous weapons)

In my opinion there are 2 possible solutions for this situation:
1) Buff Vis Mortis. Add like 50-70 life roll to it. This will make es and life gaps from rare chest almost equal and not as huge as they are atm.
2) Make delve node always drop rare chest with +1 spectre. It will become similar to rare fossil nodes. There still will be rng in getting one of those nodes in delve and in gaining decent base with resonable stats. However, everyone will know that such node is rewarding and there will be much more of those bases on the market.

P.S. This post is not about general powercreep in the game or a powerlevel of certain build/affix/item. Stop making pages of irrelevant discussion, even if such chests would give 100 additional spectres, nothing in poe should be that unaccessable and rng based



"
nerienna wrote:
I'm the one in the guild playing spectre necromancer the most.
I have never used a spectre armour - I never found one.
And I'd like it to be better for my build than a vis mortis, so I couldn_'t take any, I'd have to get the stats I really want on it.
That means a lot of crafting, and that means annulling stats I DON'T want.
What would probably destroy a few armours before I get what I want.
So it WOULD get insanely expensive, making me just want the best base for something like that.
So I wait till I get some currency to get a good base, noticing, now that the league is almost over, there isn't any I like.
I don't see me ever playing with a spectre armour ANY league, I'm noth too good at farming hundreds of exalts in the first week.

For me, it would be just awsome, if you could craft the spectre armour.
You can craft almost everything, but for summoners, there is not much at all.
So you take the vis mortis and whish for a minion node - just to get boots and gloves and helmets, no armour at all.
And even if you get one, how high is the possibility to have the spectres?

I've not seen one minion node this league, by the way.
Ok, I'm not much deeper than 320 this league, but if anyone tells me, they are too common, I'd have to have the possibility to find at least 5 of them just in reaching 300 - not ever going to the side....


SilentSymphony
Aug 16, 2019 12:49:33 PM

another question:
every character prophits from +1 curse.
So why is it only on spectre armours worth writing against it because of "power creep"?
Again: I think, that other character classes have far more possibilities and easier and cheaper ones to get insane amounts of damage.

@robmafia: how many spectre builds have you played, what is their equipment/highest level?
before you want to tell everyone that you know more than someone who prefers this class about how powerful which item is....

nerienna
Aug 16, 2019 13:04:59 PM

No offence, but +1 curse amulet also could be used in rare body armour setup.

This is the link of dps comparison between 2 and 3 curse setups: https://pastebin.com/1sYbhvDn

Dps increase is still 450K

Also with +1 curse amulet you could use a defencive curse like enfeeble/temp chains, which provides huge survivability boost.

"
1m views, well i guess that makes me one of the 1% that makes my own builds every league that clear all the content just fine, so the amount of views means nothing to me and the fact that its a build off the forum is even less respectable for me


No personal attacks (I've removed personal quote from my previous reply and will avoid them in future), but the majority of players will use this guide to play spectre summoner and balance in the game should be around majority of playerbase unless some exploits like full immunity. If we're discussing ingame change, we need to consider how this will affect the most popular build.

"
Maybe some of this energy should be spent attacking the real power creep


I'm not appying any energy towards attacking every single possible change of rare spectre chests. I actually think that its rarity requires a change. But personal experience and personal ways of constructing builds will never be an argument. Some crafts like +2 lvl of support gems/hits can't be evaded are creating build diversity and are good for the game despite being powercreep. But craft like +1 spectre will be just too strong and it only touches 1 build.

Making +1 spectre as an shaper mod may be alright, because shaper body armours don't have that many good shaper mods for summoners (elder has %life/+1 lvl of support gems), but the weight should be about 200 or 100 (same as merciless for weapons). I think a guaranteed +1 spectre body armour from a delve node is just much more simple solution.

For another reference of a significant upgrade with just +1 curse this is another PoB from the second most popular build https://respoe.xyz/forum/view-thread/2255988

https://pastebin.com/ehc0hHwR

Dps increase is only 300K and HP increase is again around 200. Still a big upgrade

P.S. about offmeta approach of builds everyone may look at my profile, where only meta build is ED in Legion. And I have a CI necro with spectres, which cleared all content with offmeta spectres with no difficulty

Veerdna
Aug 16, 2019 13:40:43 PM

Sorry if my previous post was a bit agressive, TYVM for being constructive here ill try to keep that reigned in and also do the same.

"
Veerdna wrote:
No offence, but +1 curse amulet also could be used in rare body armour setup.


I can't disagree with that


"
Veerdna wrote:

This is the link of dps comparison between 2 and 3 curse setups: https://pastebin.com/1sYbhvDn

Dps increase is still 450K

Also with +1 curse amulet you could use a defencive curse like enfeeble/temp chains, which provides huge survivability boost.


I get it, No argument on the curses and what they add potentially however i tend to play with groups and curses in group are generally not viable because only so many curses are going to apply at any given time.

So i build without curses in mind generally only using a single curse when solo on harder content if i can fit it into my build.

"
Veerdna wrote:

No personal attacks (I've removed personal quote from my previous reply and will avoid them in future), but the majority of players will use this guide to play spectre summoner and balance in the game should be around majority of playerbase unless some exploits like full immunity. If we're discussing ingame change, we need to consider how this will affect the most popular build.


Wow look at what a constructive reply can do, Some other users here could really learn a thing or two from you and how you are conducting yourself here, Again i cant disagree with that.


"
Veerdna wrote:

I'm not appying any energy towards attacking every single possible change of rare spectre chests. I actually think that its rarity requires a change. But personal experience and personal ways of constructing builds will never be an argument. Some crafts like +2 lvl of support gems/hits can't be evaded are creating build diversity and are good for the game despite being powercreep. But craft like +1 spectre will be just too strong and it only touches 1 build.


Most of my aggression towards the energy being spent on power creep was directed at other users who are attacking this topic and not the root causes of the majority of the power creep, Power creep has destroyed quite a lot of builds from being what a lot of people consider viable, Build diversity is literally being destroyed by ascendancys and other things being removed and nerfed due to it getting out of control.


"
Veerdna wrote:

Making +1 spectre as an shaper mod may be alright, because shaper body armours don't have that many good shaper mods for summoners (elder has %life/+1 lvl of support gems), but the weight should be about 200 or 100 (same as merciless for weapons). I think a guaranteed +1 spectre body armour from a delve node is just much more simple solution.

For another reference of a significant upgrade with just +1 curse this is another PoB from the second most popular build https://respoe.xyz/forum/view-thread/2255988

https://pastebin.com/ehc0hHwR

Dps increase is only 300K and HP increase is again around 200. Still a big upgrade


For me im just looking for an alternative to Energy shield or in some cases the possibility of a better ES roll for a double midnight bargain build which removes the possibility of using shavrones and the shield that stops chaos from bypassing the energy shield.

"
Veerdna wrote:

P.S. about offmeta approach of builds everyone may look at my profile, where only meta build is ED in Legion. And I have a CI necro with spectres, which cleared all content with offmeta spectres with no difficulty


what spectres were you using? I generally try to run with flicker spiders, lunar devotee and some pretty silly stuff like rats and worms since most of the monsters i would like to use have their main kit disabled.

Anywho regardless of your post dealing some damage to my arguments LOL its refreshing to see someone who's actually level 100 with max challenges weighing in here, Thanks for taking the time to do this in a constructive fashion, It was much needed.

Thread recap of constructive posts.
Spoiler
Since a lot of posts have been lost behind many pages of fairly pointless argument here is a bunch of quotes of the constructive posts from the entire thread.

If i missed your post feel free to PM me, Though i've tried to not add quotes of fighting rather constructive input, Thank you to everyone both for and against the topic at hand for discussing it in a constructive manner.


The OP:
"
Shieldbreaker wrote:
Greetings!

This is just a friendly reminder that rare +1 spectre chest, a fairly necessary item for many summoners, is, probably, the hardest to get item in-game. Can easily take hundreds, if not thousands, of hours to get one.

Almost any other build can chaos spam and exalt slam, use prophecies, divination cards, farm shaper/elder influenced areas, grind out uber elders and so on to get their high end chest pieces.

For summoners, if you are life based, or even if you just wish to have an alternative to Vis Mortis, it is basically IMPOSSIBLE. I would kill to only have to find an elder ilvl 85 vaal regalia and craft it with prime resonators.

Instead, you have to Delve, one of the hardest to access contents in the game. I have reached depth 500, have only met two necromancer/aura item nodes, 0 of which dropped a +1 spectre chest, let alone on a good base, let alone with solid mods.

So, for a fairly mediocre-to-ok build (summoners), to have a build-enabling item, you need to spend like 1000 hours+ just to get a crafting base? That you can't fossil or essence craft, so you will probably ruin it by annul+exalt slam, and will, most likely, have to spend another 1000+ hours getting one? And if ever Synthesis/crafting implicits goes core, that will also be unavailable for summoners for chest piece?

Just make the 'Contains necromancer and aura items' node have a chest +1 spectre crafting recipe. If not brutal enough, have an alternative, minion room 3 in incursion that drops a unique-something, combines with several exalt value vial from omnitech to grant a rare chest a crafted +1 spectre, or something. The current system is broken.

Several hour grind, at most, like 100 hours for any build to get a solid chest piece. In 1000 hours, most builds can probably get a mirror-worthy 6x t1 chest. Not spectre sumnmoners. Doesn't seem right.

Thank you for your attention!

Do you believe that it is okay for summoners to have to do x10 or even more the effort, to get a high-end chest armour piece?


"
lompad wrote:
Agreed. Should be made a bit easier to get i think.


"
Pizzarugi wrote:
You can't be upset about not having it if you try and not get it. That what I've gotten used to doing, and I make due with my 3 spectres.

That said, considering the +1 totem craft was slightly improved to be more accessible, it sure would be nice if the +1 spectre mod was turned into a craft mod as well, even if I may not be able to afford to install it.


"
Lilar wrote:
Can agree on that one. With things like +1 totem being so easily available one should definitly consider making spectres chest more available,


"
Suhuy wrote:
Seems fair enought.


"
Shieldbreaker wrote:
Thank you for the support!

An idea I came up with, what if +1 spectre as an expensive craft (1-2 exalted orbs), and unlocked from mastermind? Would still take a long time to get it, and be expensive, but at least would be doable in under 2000 hours.


"
Pizzarugi wrote:

"
Just make the 'Contains necromancer and aura items' node have a chest +1 spectre crafting recipe. If not brutal enough, have an alternative, minion room 3 in incursion that drops a unique-something, combines with several exalt value vial from omnitech to grant a rare chest a crafted +1 spectre, or something. The current system is broken.


I'm wholly in agreement with this.


"
robmafia wrote:
honestly, i think +1 spectre is too strong to have a crafting recipe.

that said, i think a lot of the betrayal crafts are too strong and shouldn't exist, either.


"
andreicde wrote:

I don't care about snapshotting, I'm referring to the whole +1 specter chest. Spectre summoners are extremely squishy, therefore they could use some additional defenses in the current meta where GGG keeps buffing mobs/always caring about speed metas.


"
Saltychipmunk wrote:
It should just be added to the fossil craft pool for chests as a rare mod.

You cannot make it a craft recipe because unlike +1 zombie or +1 skeleton (which are both minor or inconsistent damage boosts thanks to melee minion pathing)

A single spectre is a massive multiplier for damage.

It would easily be the kind of craft mod that takes 2 exalts to make if it were one.

It would also be the only chest mod summoners would use as spectres have utility in pretty much every summoner build you can fit them in .


there is a reason why vismortis is an otherwise shit chest when you remove the + spectre mod


"
Saltychipmunk wrote:

bound fossils are also random, I never said that the spectre mod would be common.

the issue with craft recipes is that you can slap them on anything at the end of the process. So even if 2 exa sounds expensive . if you just throw +1 spectre on a 15 exa chest .. you saved a TON of money.

if it were bound fossils you would need to worry about having a good chest along with hitting the spectre mod.


"
Shieldbreaker wrote:

I know how hard it is to get +1 curse chest, took me about 120-150 Betrayal encounters, so without any trading or prophecies/sextants, can do it in 40-50 days easily just from dailies alone. If you only log in to do Jun daily, can get it in about 4-5h of grind.

Spectre chest is about 200-300 times harder to get. And you can't craft it, and can't get it on a base of ilvl higher than 83, or shaper/elder base, and so on. Assuming the odds of highest tier body armour being 1/10, the spectre chest is 2000-3000 times harder to get. Add in the low chances of good mods, the near impossibility to craft...hence the INSANITY in the title.

That being said, crafting +1 curse is 3 exalted, most expensive craft in-game, so I think if +1 spectre does become a craft option, it should also be 3 exalted.


"
I agree with the OP as a spectre main that has slowly been encouraged not to play my favorite class for a large variety of issues unrelated to this topic.

But one of those issues that is the OPs post literally, its far too difficult to obtain this armour.

i tend to run 2x midnight bargain, my life sucks enough without this insanity, I did not delve nearly as much as the OP in Synthesis league but i did delve a decent amount and never came across a single minion node.

I'm not really angry about how complicated it is to get one of these armours but compared to getting a headhunter i could probably get a couple of those every league much easier than this armour which is still bound to a heavy RNG roll and if you try to anull useless mods you risk losing an item that is almost literally irreplaceable in a leagues lifespan

Edit: i do have one question to ask here though, say that GGG does listen and makes the armour easier to get, perhaps to the point that they are available on the market at a reasonable price.. what happens to vis mortis? does the unholy might still offer enough reason to ever use it.

all changes are going to have a broad effect generally in this game.


"
TreeOfDead wrote:
im agree on that one suggesion

IF like +1 totem being SO easily available WHY should NOT making spectres chest more available? Like rly WTF?

Also STOP NERF SPECTRES!


"
pphnx wrote:

After betrayel players were able to craft op items that can never even imagine before.

They wanted kidney for 370+ pdps jewelled foil in incursion now everyone is hanging around with 450+pdps multimod jewelled foils.

You can get the base for 3-4ex. Jewelled Foil with only one mod. prob dictator's

https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Legion/qv2nzvHg

Or you can buy 6L short bow with just one mod (+1 level gem) for 1-1.5ex
bow for ed/contag

But you cant do that for +1 spectre armor. Bcs its the rarest mod and only one drop area in the entire game chests with +1 spectre (no other mods) starts with 20ex.



"
pphnx wrote:

I'm comparing weapon and chest pieces bcs these are the items that makkes differences.(not mandatory bu good to have) In melee builds dps of the weapon and in summoner builds +1 spectre chest piece make difference.

ex
450+ pdps weapon is not mandatory but good to have (porbably 400pdps would be enough for all content)

+1 spec on boots is not a good to have. it is mandatory. its nearly cheap. easy to craft with (bound pristine on two-tonned boots)
+%90 minion damage is not good to have it is mandatory. its cheap.

Ok lets talk about rare chest piecees of cyclone and summoner builds.

good to have (better than belly of the beast) rare chest piece for cyclone build: (pristine serrated on astral plate not very hard to craft) maim, mana cost flat and % life
https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Legion/X0Dgl4UP
starts with 4ex. with nice life mods.


good to have (better than vis mortis) +1 spectre rare armor. (impossible to craft +1 spectre)
https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Legion/YgX97kIY

nice bases starts with 15 ex. If you want a real nice base to multimod you have to spend +25ex

cycolne stats (maim and mana cost) cost +3-4 ex more and craftable but +1 spectre mod costs +13-14 ex more and impossible to craft.

Thats the point.



"
icovex wrote:

In the POE crafting system, it's basically ridiculous.

Let's look on all crafting system of POE, it gives always several ways in all rare system to obtain possible suffix/prefix for the items, and only in case of +1 spectre to chests, it only drops. At least, based on my knowledge, there is no other modifiers in rare items like this.

I agree, that unique items can be only dropped from some locations, that's why they called "Unique", but rares is different story.

And again, i agree, that this is endgame item, and it should be still precious, and it should not be like crap always available, so for example, conditions that this exists only on elder/shaper body armours of item level 83+ would still make it very valuable. What if in next league there will be no delve? We should die in 1 unique item called Vis Mortis?


"

Totems average at about 4-5 max without the shield, With the boots and chest spectres average at about 4, With the shield 5-6 is your average totem count if you are fully dedicated without a 30% Life reservation UNAFFECTED by reservation nodes per spectre 5+ with midnight bargain on spectres.

With that logic here we'd have +7 totem builds to make it "fair" just so that a summoner could have 4 spectres without the vis mortis without jumping through hoops that honestly you could do for an ENTIRE LEAGUE and never stand a chance at actually finding this item.

Which i have done ^ in tandem with a group of 3-4 people trying for the entire synthesis league.

Lets also bring into play here the fact that when leaving the vis mortis you also lose minion damage and a powerful buff on kill for your spectres, The spectre body armour is random in its base and has to be anulled and heavily crafted to become actually useful, Combine this with the extreme rarity of it being obtainable in delve in literal months of farming and i've officially failed to see any point in the argument provided.



"
icovex wrote:

Let me say it in other way, for example. There is a very rare mod for the wand - 20% reduced Soul Cost of Vaal Skills, it is obtained through:

- Drop in the Delve
- Drop in the Legion
- Crafted through bloodstained fossil.

All of this ways are quite expensive, rare, weapon with this suffix are started from 80 chaos, crap weapons, valuable high tier weapons starting from 1 exalts, and you can receive it elder based/shaper based.

But still! This items are available in different ways to achieve, and not only drops. For some Vaal builds they are mandatory.

And if we will go on, we will find more rare suffixes/prefixes which still can be found in different ways. And this is how POE overall philosophy works, why exactly for "+1 Spectres" it should be different?

If i cannot craft it, i cannot use elder/shaper possible prefixes/suffixes, i cannot create interesting builds with other possible outcomes, for example arcana surge or maim... I need copypaste +1 spectre, multiple crafted modifiers, max life, some of the resistance and +1 to curses. Great and interesting.





"
pphnx wrote:

If a cyclone player can get 6L chest with :
attacks have -15 mana cons
+1 maim support
+100 max life
%8 max life
+may be some resist
(most of the time this is way better than 6L Belly)

With only 5-6 ex


Yea I want my goddamn +1 spectre rare chets at least under 10ex

For powercreep :
Stop it. I dont have a problem with that.
But if you dont make +1 spectre chest more accesible.



"
Veerdna wrote:
From a long time spectre summoner player:

4 spectres is absolutely not mandatory. However, if there exists a body armour with enough defences and +1 spectre, every spectre summoner will use it. Vis Mortis is absolute trash due to no flat life/low es and its offencive bonuses (unholy might and 15% minoin damage) are almost nothing compared to just +1 spectre. Top 3 spectres (IMO solaris guards, CFE and tukohama vanguards) have enough damage for you to just use 3 of them.

Thus, I think that +1 spectre rare armour should stay insanely rare. But current state is beyond absurd. It is the single hardest item ingame to aquire (probably including shaped uniques), because it is not targetfarmable (like hh), craftable (like dex stacking bows or 1000+ es chests) or even chancable (even skyforth, which is not targetfarmable, could be chanced with approximately 12-15K chances). In addition, it's extremely difficult to craft afterwards. Yes, it's a big upgrade and definetely not needed, but it doesn't create such powercreep to be that insane to aquire. For example, maximum es on multimoded vaal regalia with +1 spectre is 515 which is only around 120 more than perfect Vis Mortis. And crafted life on body armour couldn't exceed 113 (with no curse as a prefix, 85 with such). Addind that resists will not exceed a total of 80, we could summarize that an upgrade over Vis Mortis is nothing too impressive for the perfect endgame item (compare to whatever endgame op shaper opal rings, dex stacking bows, insane es chests, melee body armours and ridiculous weapons)

In my opinion there are 2 possible solutions for this situation:
1) Buff Vis Mortis. Add like 50-70 life roll to it. This will make es and life gaps from rare chest almost equal and not as huge as they are atm.
2) Make delve node always drop rare chest with +1 spectre. It will become similar to rare fossil nodes. There still will be rng in getting one of those nodes in delve and in gaining decent base with resonable stats. However, everyone will know that such node is rewarding and there will be much more of those bases on the market.

P.S. This post is not about general powercreep in the game or a powerlevel of certain build/affix/item. Stop making pages of irrelevant discussion, even if such chests would give 100 additional spectres, nothing in poe should be that unaccessable and rng based



"
nerienna wrote:
I'm the one in the guild playing spectre necromancer the most.
I have never used a spectre armour - I never found one.
And I'd like it to be better for my build than a vis mortis, so I couldn_'t take any, I'd have to get the stats I really want on it.
That means a lot of crafting, and that means annulling stats I DON'T want.
What would probably destroy a few armours before I get what I want.
So it WOULD get insanely expensive, making me just want the best base for something like that.
So I wait till I get some currency to get a good base, noticing, now that the league is almost over, there isn't any I like.
I don't see me ever playing with a spectre armour ANY league, I'm noth too good at farming hundreds of exalts in the first week.

For me, it would be just awsome, if you could craft the spectre armour.
You can craft almost everything, but for summoners, there is not much at all.
So you take the vis mortis and whish for a minion node - just to get boots and gloves and helmets, no armour at all.
And even if you get one, how high is the possibility to have the spectres?

I've not seen one minion node this league, by the way.
Ok, I'm not much deeper than 320 this league, but if anyone tells me, they are too common, I'd have to have the possibility to find at least 5 of them just in reaching 300 - not ever going to the side....


"
Veerdna wrote:
Taking in consideration that the discussion about powercreep in spectres builds is still going, I tried to put a comparison between Vis Mortis and rare armour in PoB.

This is modified setup of the most viewed spectre summoner build on forum (simplified all abyss jewels and reconsider gems and curse setups for solar guards/ for the reference build guide is https://respoe.xyz/forum/view-thread/2181275 and has a bit over 1M views): https://pastebin.com/0V1NcRZP.

Here I have 2 gear setups with only body armour and flask difference. On kill mods for minions are disabled and boss is in shaper/guardian mode. Unholy Might from Vis Mortis is simulated on flask and disabled in rare body armour setup. Second curse is obviously not calculated in Vis Mortis setup.

As a result DPS per spectre in Vis Mortis setup is 633K and player life is 6601. With rare body armour DPS will be 764K per spectre and player life will be 6837. This is over a 500K overall DPS upgrade, which is indeed a lot.

I'm still thinking that such armours are hided behind too much rng. But this:
"
Some suggest adding a crafting recipe in the delve node where this armour+Mod can be obtained. - i think this is pretty reasonable giving the rarity of the node in general

Some have said making it a fossil craft. - considering the rarity of other mods from shaper i don't see how this would be a bad way to go either.

is completely wrong IMO. Being able to combine such powerful mod with other fossil/elder/shaper stuff (like extra phys mitigation, extra lvl of support gems, maim or just a godlike life rolls) will create an absurd powercreep almost at the same lvl we have it for cyclone and ED atm.

I've encountered 6 minion nodes doing endgame delve grind this league. Sadly none of them dropped +1 spectre body armour, but they are not as uncommon as everyone is crying about (comparing to bosses and rare fossil nodes, minion nodes are more common then all of those).

So, the simple solution, as I've already suggested, is to make those nodes drop +1 spectre body armour guaranteed. You'll at least be able to farm it in league time or buy for cheap from others and pray for lucky annuls, while top end bases will still stay at 35+ex range which is perfectly fine for endgame items.

And cyclone powerlvl should not be considered as a comparison point, it's completely overplayed like winter orb was and probably will be adjusted in 3.8 or 3.9


"
Veerdna wrote:
No offence, but +1 curse amulet also could be used in rare body armour setup.

This is the link of dps comparison between 2 and 3 curse setups: https://pastebin.com/1sYbhvDn

Dps increase is still 450K

Also with +1 curse amulet you could use a defencive curse like enfeeble/temp chains, which provides huge survivability boost.

"
1m views, well i guess that makes me one of the 1% that makes my own builds every league that clear all the content just fine, so the amount of views means nothing to me and the fact that its a build off the forum is even less respectable for me


No personal attacks (I've removed personal quote from my previous reply and will avoid them in future), but the majority of players will use this guide to play spectre summoner and balance in the game should be around majority of playerbase unless some exploits like full immunity. If we're discussing ingame change, we need to consider how this will affect the most popular build.

"
Maybe some of this energy should be spent attacking the real power creep


I'm not appying any energy towards attacking every single possible change of rare spectre chests. I actually think that its rarity requires a change. But personal experience and personal ways of constructing builds will never be an argument. Some crafts like +2 lvl of support gems/hits can't be evaded are creating build diversity and are good for the game despite being powercreep. But craft like +1 spectre will be just too strong and it only touches 1 build.

Making +1 spectre as an shaper mod may be alright, because shaper body armours don't have that many good shaper mods for summoners (elder has %life/+1 lvl of support gems), but the weight should be about 200 or 100 (same as merciless for weapons). I think a guaranteed +1 spectre body armour from a delve node is just much more simple solution.

For another reference of a significant upgrade with just +1 curse this is another PoB from the second most popular build https://respoe.xyz/forum/view-thread/2255988

https://pastebin.com/ehc0hHwR

Dps increase is only 300K and HP increase is again around 200. Still a big upgrade

P.S. about offmeta approach of builds everyone may look at my profile, where only meta build is ED in Legion. And I have a CI necro with spectres, which cleared all content with offmeta spectres with no difficulty



SilentSymphony
Aug 16, 2019 14:16:41 PM

"
Power creep has destroyed quite a lot of builds from being what a lot of people consider viable


Don't hate me, but I'm usually a fan of a powercreep unless it's too insane. Synthesis mods were too much (+2 min charges on shiels, onslaught on boots, +3 lvl of gems on bow were too much. I actually crafted +2 min frenzy/+2 min endurance/max res shield and sold it for quite a ton, also
Spoiler
Apocalypse Goad
Synthesised Sorcerer Boots
Click to expand
  • +30 to maximum Energy Shield
  • 8% increased Movement Speed
  • Onslaught
  • +21 to Intelligence
  • +38 to maximum Energy Shield
  • 99% increased Energy Shield
  • 9% increased Stun and Block Recovery
  • 6% increased Movement Speed if you've Hit an Enemy Recently
  • ). But IMO bench mods made so many builds much more viable. Cast while channeling, cast on crit, melee, ED (and a lot more, Shaper is possible to be killed with leap slam now) became much more powerful with Betrayal crafting changes.

    I'm just not a big fan of 1 or 2 skills being just too good to not use them. Powercreep is alright unless it doesn't support those OP skills. And GGG is also trying to catch up with balancing it (rares hp went twice this league). This is a bit of Diablo balancing approach, but I expect changes in 4.0.

    Meta will always exist in any semi-competitive game. But noone is forcing you to join it. Thats just a matter of efficiency.

    In other hand, I completely understand that most of tier 2 builds require decent amount of currency to feel good (usually about 15-20ex) and that is more than most people could afford.

    "
    For me im just looking for an alternative to Energy shield or in some cases the possibility of a better ES roll for a double midnight bargain build which removes the possibility of using shavrones and the shield that stops chaos from bypassing the energy shield.


    Shield stops only half of the damage bypass ES, but that doesn't matter to much. I think 4 or more spectres is absolutely unnecessary, best ES approach will be CI with 3 spectres


    "

    what spectres were you using?


    This is the link to my build guide https://respoe.xyz/forum/view-thread/2332189

    "
    flicker spiders


    I remember there are flicker vendigos, which are a bit stronger

    To the topic: If +1 spectre will become a shaper or elder mod it is almost alright. According to PoEDB, if you want life roll on body armour, you will be forced to life/spectre/curse as prefixes and there are not that many OP mods as suffixes for body armours. Best highlights are 10% MoM, life regen, Maim (phys spectres), minion life and effect of auras on you. The most dangerous is stacking MoM effects (10% from lucent fossil, 25% while focused, 30% generic keystone and 10% from watcher's eye results in 75% MoM effect). With Eldritch Battery that may be too much damage prevention.

    Thus, I think that +1 spectre as a shaper or elder mod will be almost alright, but it needs an insanely low appearance rate, about 200. In comparison, +1 totem has a rate of 800, but it cannot be increased with fossils unlike spectres. But those changes could be done only if necromancer won't receive a buff, which I'll prefer much more over a body armour change.

    However, +1 spectre as shaper/elder stat will make minion delve nodes irrelevant, which is also pretty bad for the game balance

    Veerdna
    Aug 16, 2019 15:28:16 PM

    "
    nerienna wrote:
    another question:
    every character prophits from +1 curse.
    So why is it only on spectre armours worth writing against it because of "power creep"?


    ...because this thread is about spectre armours? do you expect me to rail against irrelevant power creep in this thread? come on, man.

    https://respoe.xyz/forum/view-thread/2248351

    "
    Wow look at what a constructive reply can do, Some other users here could really learn a thing or two from you and how you are conducting yourself here, Again i cant disagree with that.



    ...the irony is off the charts.

    still awaiting to hear why i need to annul an item before bench crafting it.

    robmafia
    Aug 16, 2019 15:42:10 PM

    "
    still awaiting to hear why i need to annul an item before bench crafting it.


    According to official trade website:

    23 online results with open prefix. This may not be the best way to count, because league is almost dead at this point.

    73 results listed in 1 month range.

    Out of all of them
    10 online results with above 30 life roll
    22 results listed in 1 month range with above 30 life roll

    Out of them:
    6 online results with at least 2 open suffixes to multimod
    8 results listed in a month with at least 2 open suffixes to multimod

    And 6 with 3 open suffixes to make the best multimod

    So, you don't need to annul to benchcraft a mod, but the variance of available bases is pretty low and farming for your own base is almost impossible as suggested in the topic.

    Thus, if you don't have 20+ex in league or want a specific base or stats, you're forced to annul, which is rng. However. I don't see how annuling is related as pro or cons against topic discussion

    In standard, I suppose, it's better to talk about best possible armour and gl on metacraft an item without annuls (however there won't be any rng in loosing +1 spectre mod)

    Veerdna
    Aug 16, 2019 16:26:11 PM

    ...you really shouldn't take up someone's abandoned claim, especially when it was abandoned because it was false/flawed.

    "
    So, you don't need to annul to benchcraft a mod, but the variance of available bases is pretty low and farming for your own base is almost impossible as suggested in the topic.

    Thus, if you don't have 20+ex in league or want a specific base or stats, you're forced to annul, which is rng. However. I don't see how annuling is related as pro or cons against topic discussion


    btw, pick one.


    ask silentsymphony and shieldbreaker. they insist it's relevant, despite being unable to explain, themselves.

    robmafia
    Aug 16, 2019 16:37:59 PM

    "

    btw, pick one.


    This is conditional and depends on your own needs. If I would want a perfect item, I would search for a good base first, but since there are only 6 possible choices (even less earlier in league) I hardly will find a perfect one. So, I'll be forced to annul something from a base with not enough open affixes

    I'm not taking up anybody's claim, I'm just answering your question for you to not ask it again, since it's irrelevant

    Veerdna
    Aug 16, 2019 16:51:13 PM
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