Forum Index Witch [3.8] Flame Golem 101 - Complete Guide To Golemancy, ✔️All Bosses Down, ✔️Necro, ✔️Elementalist

History

"
I_GameR wrote:
oh my... good, very good, my friend!

1. PoB have a problems, yes. I corrected all formuls in Excel :D
2. Pledge is bugged in PoB. Need add him "Socketed Gems deal 52% more Spell Damage", if we use Spell Echo. i use.
3. the whole essence of the staff is the synergy of two echoes, both in damage and 4 balls per charge. this is a solution to the problem with cast speed magma balls. left to reduce CDR charge and harmonys help us.
4. if not use Pledge - we are losing +2 casts and 1,52 MORE coefficient, ok.
5. Ye, True: that would mean, that 0,98s cooldown is too high -> increased cast speed for golems would be bad. They will be just stay and wait charge.
ok lets go to Mathematics!))

1,09s cooldown
1,18s cast time for 2 balls from 1 charge
good

300% (2*1,5) per 1 charge in 1,32s
good

why empower, for hp? concentrated effect better for DMG. ok good.
+2lvl gives ~40% more dmg (skill+2 and empower+2)
if we dont use empower, we use concentrated effect
and more dmg ~15%
bad

carrion golem in pob dont give DPS for harmony ((
+2 golems this +40% dmg all golems for Ascendancy too, and then
(6*12*1,2 vs 6*12*0,8) = 1,5 +40% all golems - think real 1,55
good

1,15*1,55=1,783 so 173% more.

Please note that 2 golems are stones of skills, they will replace something else. It will also take damage, let it be Combustion and 1 curse - 1,16*1,1=~1,27 coefficients -> 0.83

and then

1,783*0,83 = 1,48 = 148% more per 1 charge in 0,98s.

i think it is true...

btw i cannot use 5 flames + 4 other, because i dont have slot now, need 1 more ring with slot, it is ideal. just 0 exalts for league))))))
i can swap Combustion, but it is bad...(

so all in all cast speed is only good with pledge of hands?
I think, yes, in any case, even if we made a mistake in the calculations somewhere. Let people correct us.

Too, We are losing many hp from Belly of the Beast.

Okay, I'll go play, spent 2 hours on recalculations)))
I hope my broken English didn’t bleed from your eyes guys: D

Thanks for the reasoning, my friend, I look forward to continuing the conversation!))

thx for the answer!
english is not my native language either, so no, your english is fine :D

empower vs conc effect:
for the pledge build empower isnt that great, yes. gives only 30% more dmg on lvl4
in a +2 skin of loyal its lvl 6 and gives 50% more dmg and some nice hp
conc effect has the problem, that the balls have a smaller radius and overlap less, but i dont know if its only marginal.

the +40% from 2 more golems from ascedancy should be in a multiplier with harmonies, so 1240 instead of 1200. dont know if its right, but if yes, these 40% dont really matter.

with conc effect vs empower the gap seems to rise, so pledge should be best dmg


you are using anger, which adds not much damage to golems. only for the combustion from the other golems?
for bosses i will try later skitterbots. all say they are intelligent and apply 20% shock and only cost 35% reserved mana.

i run devouring diadem with MOM for defence. works pretty nice. skin of loyal will give some nice es to it. also i use a shield and im lazy.


stfukthx
Sep 16, 2019 19:22:14 PM

Hi. Thanks! This guide helped me get started and level smoothly. But, now that I'm lvl 85, I wonder, what the heck is block good for? Even with 65/55 block chances, I'm getting hit very often! Is it a good choice for the content that is coming ahead for me?

DoveAhKin
Sep 16, 2019 20:00:42 PM

"
stfukthx wrote:
empower vs conc effect:
for the pledge build empower isnt that great, yes. gives only 30% more dmg on lvl4
in a +2 skin of loyal its lvl 6 and gives 50% more dmg and some nice hp
conc effect has the problem, that the balls have a smaller radius and overlap less, but i dont know if its only marginal.
it is true, we have problems with HP golems(

"
stfukthx wrote:
the +40% from 2 more golems from ascedancy should be in a multiplier with harmonies, so 1240 instead of 1200. dont know if its right, but if yes, these 40% dont really matter.
ye. it is additive, not good coeff, but i tring play with conc )))

"
stfukthx wrote:
you are using anger, which adds not much damage to golems. only for the combustion from the other golems?

anger give 15% DPS + help start Combustion other golems, yes)))

"
stfukthx wrote:
for bosses i will try later skitterbots. all say they are intelligent and apply 20% shock and only cost 35% reserved mana.
need test, if it that, it is good...hmmm..thx!)

"
stfukthx wrote:
i run devouring diadem with MOM for defence. works pretty nice. skin of loyal will give some nice es to it. also i use a shield and im lazy.

:D

diadem is good) eh, was thinking about it, but what do with 20% MP?... yellow helmet i can craft with resonator...)

I_GameR
Sep 16, 2019 21:30:46 PM

"
drdkjack wrote:
With the new 1h +2 skills for flame golem, do we still wand to use the pledge even?

thats 4+ ie. lvl 32 flame golems.

+1 level to all spell gems
+1 level to all fire spell gems

currently sitting on lvl 31 flame golems, and waiting for an affordable second +2 spell item :).



"
so +4lvl for golem or greater spell echo 30lvl for links?
for compare need use this hint
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Greater_Spell_Echo_Support


"
117k dps with two convoking wand with two +1 mods and 124k dps with modifed PoH
Seems two +2wands with additional minions mods grant us a litlle more dps
but im not see this +2 wands on trade atm
i see only one dagger +2 priced for 9999exa =)


"
all 3 mods (+1 spells, +1 fire, +1 minion) seem to be possible on convoking wand, which would make it +6.
but i dont know if its possible to have all 3 on one item (+2fire and +2 support craft didnt work on 2h)

+2 seems less effective than +1 more flamegolem from clayshaper. +2 is like 20% more? and 5% more for spectre if u use them?


"
https://poecraft.com/itemmods say you cant have 3 +1 mods on wand


Hello :)

+3 wands seem to be very scarce and expensive at the moment if there are any. If they become more available or we find a way to craft them reliably, I would see argument in losing the 5th Golem as huge DPS boost to TV Specs is more important in bosses than extra Golem.


"
About the bug with might, this was taken from the 3.81 Notes:

"-Fixed a bug introduced in 3.8.0 where the Primordial Might unique jewel did not make Golems Aggressive."

So we will not need Feeding frenzy anymore next week.


Hi :)

That was pretty quick answer from GGG. I will put up notice to temporarily use Feeding Frenzy with Golems instead of Combustion.


Spoiler
how do you get 0,33s?
was really interested in cdr/cast speed things etc so i did an obersvation:

i used this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R05IjPfDmQ0

0cdr/0ics 0cdr/100ics 293cdr/0ics

cast 1 1s 1s 1s
cast 2 2s 1.12s 2s
cast 3 3s 1.27s 3s

cast 4 7s 7s 4s
cast 5 13s 13s 5s
cast 6 19s 19s 6.28s

cast 7 25s 25s 8s
cast 8 31s ... 8.29s
cast 9 37s ... 10.19s




the first cast is instant after the golem is summoned (it takes 1s to summon it)
with 293cdr the magmaball should have an cooldowntime of 2,05s

with 0ics it seems they have a cast time of 1 ball per second
with 100ics he casts all 3 balls in 0,27s instead of 2s


whats the conclusion? tbh i dont know, since i expected other times from 100% cast speed
also i dont understand why in the first column the cast ist every 6sec(cooldown) and in the 3rd its roughly every 1sec, but the cooldown is 2s.

but what this shows is, that extra increased castspeed is pretty useless to golems (in terms of constant damage (bosses, blight without moving,...)), cause they alrdy get 70%+ from spell echo.
as alrdy mentioned in several posts here the bottleneck is the cdr.
its only good for mapclear, when u move from 1 pack to another and want the 3 fireballs charges fired fast.
thus i dont understand why some poeple say that castspeed mods on wands lead to more damage 1:1. and ravenous horde doesnt seem to be that good for flamegolems.

if someone has an explenation for the drastically cast speed increase, and the last column being 1s, not 2s, we could make a formula.
i searched for something like this, but couldnt find anything except the video/post from that nice guy.
and pls correct me, if anything i wrote is wrong :D


Spoiler
hello! i am from russian, eng for me - hard, sry, but i will try!

my build for golem, will be 6,4M DPS, 6 flames, 3 other golems (add 6-link only): https://pastebin.com/5kG9sDx9

I discussed the formula for a long time and came to the conclusion:.

1. the most important thing is more harmonies -> CDR magma ball, need ~1s
2. so that the charges of a magma ball do not end at all, it is necessary that the cast speed balls per 1 charge is greater than their "CDR magma ball" (~1s)
3. Pledge have a Greater Spell Echo, and we use Spell Echo, 3+1=4 ball for 1 charge

then formula: DPS = MAX, if CDR = 1 sec and 4*CastSpeed > CDR.

i have Pledge + spell echo and 12 Harmony.

4 * 0,33 = 1,32 s(for cast 4 magma ball)
0,98 s (1 charge recharge)

1,32 > 0,98, then charges infinite and DPS = MAX.
---
Spoiler

---
VIDEO: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/481965972?t=00h40m00s
[3.8] Моё руководство "Всё и Везде" - Цепь молний - Ведьма


Spoiler
hi, wow thx for the detailed explenation
now i know where u got ur 0,33s from. i hope pb is correct in this, cause pob has/had some problems with the damage calculation with golems.

damn pledge of hands makes it even more complicated :/

with pledge of hands you make 4 balls in 1,32s from 1 charge
without pledge of hands you make 2 balls in 0,66s from 1 charge
that would mean, that 0,98s cooldown is too high -> increased cast speed for golems would be bad

for example i dont use pledge and got 1,09s cooldown, 1,18s cast time for 2 balls from 1 charge. i got only the castspeed from "spell echo"

well that shows how good pledge is. you get about 300% (2*1,5) more dmg (100% 2xballs + ~50%more dmg greater spell echo + spell echo) per 1 charge in 1,32s

lets compare this to +2 lvl skin of loyal and + 2 golems from clayshapers:
+2lvl gives ~40% more dmg (skill+2 and empower+2)
+2 golems with 6 1 1 1 1 1 ~50% more dmg (6*12*1,2 vs 6*12*0,8)
= 1,4*1,5 = 2,1 so 210% more dmg per 1 charge in 0,98s.
thats 277% more in 1,32s ((210*1,32) dont know if you can calculate it like that)


300% more vs 277% more seems pledge is better.
(edit: with shield 230% more (statshield, not victarios))

(btw if you go 5 1 1 1 1 with 12 harmonies you even get 4% more dmg from ur pledgebuild if my maths are right
5*12*1=60 vs
6*12*0,8=57,6)


so all in all cast speed is only good with pledge of hands?


pls correct me if im wrong


Spoiler
oh my... good, very good, my friend!

1. PoB have a problems, yes. I corrected all formuls in Excel :D
2. Pledge is bugged in PoB. Need add him "Socketed Gems deal 52% more Spell Damage", if we use Spell Echo. i use.
3. the whole essence of the staff is the synergy of two echoes, both in damage and 4 balls per charge. this is a solution to the problem with cast speed magma balls. left to reduce CDR charge and harmonys help us.
4. if not use Pledge - we are losing +2 casts and 1,52 MORE coefficient, ok.
5. Ye, True: that would mean, that 0,98s cooldown is too high -> increased cast speed for golems would be bad. They will be just stay and wait charge.
ok lets go to Mathematics!))

1,09s cooldown
1,18s cast time for 2 balls from 1 charge
good

300% (2*1,5) per 1 charge in 1,32s
good

why empower, for hp? concentrated effect better for DMG. ok good.
+2lvl gives ~40% more dmg (skill+2 and empower+2)
if we dont use empower, we use concentrated effect
and more dmg ~15%
bad

carrion golem in pob dont give DPS for harmony ((
+2 golems this +40% dmg all golems for Ascendancy too, and then
(6*12*1,2 vs 6*12*0,8) = 1,5 +40% all golems - think real 1,55
good

1,15*1,55=1,783 so 173% more.

Please note that 2 golems are stones of skills, they will replace something else. It will also take damage, let it be Combustion and 1 curse - 1,16*1,1=~1,27 coefficients -> 0.83

and then

1,783*0,83 = 1,48 = 148% more per 1 charge in 0,98s.

i think it is true...

btw i cannot use 5 flames + 4 other, because i dont have slot now, need 1 more ring with slot, it is ideal. just 0 exalts for league))))))
i can swap Combustion, but it is bad...(

so all in all cast speed is only good with pledge of hands?
I think, yes, in any case, even if we made a mistake in the calculations somewhere. Let people correct us.

Too, We are losing many hp from Belly of the Beast.

Okay, I'll go play, spent 2 hours on recalculations)))
I hope my broken English didn’t bleed from your eyes guys: D

Thanks for the reasoning, my friend, I look forward to continuing the conversation!))


Spoiler
thx for the answer!
english is not my native language either, so no, your english is fine :D

empower vs conc effect:
for the pledge build empower isnt that great, yes. gives only 30% more dmg on lvl4
in a +2 skin of loyal its lvl 6 and gives 50% more dmg and some nice hp
conc effect has the problem, that the balls have a smaller radius and overlap less, but i dont know if its only marginal.

the +40% from 2 more golems from ascedancy should be in a multiplier with harmonies, so 1240 instead of 1200. dont know if its right, but if yes, these 40% dont really matter.

with conc effect vs empower the gap seems to rise, so pledge should be best dmg


you are using anger, which adds not much damage to golems. only for the combustion from the other golems?
for bosses i will try later skitterbots. all say they are intelligent and apply 20% shock and only cost 35% reserved mana.

i run devouring diadem with MOM for defence. works pretty nice. skin of loyal will give some nice es to it. also i use a shield and im lazy.


Spoiler
it is true, we have problems with HP golems(

"
stfukthx wrote:
the +40% from 2 more golems from ascedancy should be in a multiplier with harmonies, so 1240 instead of 1200. dont know if its right, but if yes, these 40% dont really matter.
ye. it is additive, not good coeff, but i tring play with conc )))

"
stfukthx wrote:
you are using anger, which adds not much damage to golems. only for the combustion from the other golems?

anger give 15% DPS + help start Combustion other golems, yes)))

"
stfukthx wrote:
for bosses i will try later skitterbots. all say they are intelligent and apply 20% shock and only cost 35% reserved mana.
need test, if it that, it is good...hmmm..thx!)

"
stfukthx wrote:
i run devouring diadem with MOM for defence. works pretty nice. skin of loyal will give some nice es to it. also i use a shield and im lazy.

:D

diadem is good) eh, was thinking about it, but what do with 20% MP?... yellow helmet i can craft with resonator...)


Hello :)

The setup with 12x harmonies looks interesting, but EHP (HP + ES) looks dangerously low.

From my experience if :

Golems have higher cooldown than cast speed they run out of charges and go for melee range with weaker spells which is bad.

Golems have higher cast speed than cooldown they will accumulate charges for no reason as they can't spend them. This is potentially wasted from other parts of the build like adding "more" damage multiplier, defenses or utility.

Is there any benefit in lowering cooldown below the total cast speed that can be archieved without huge sacrifices? Using 1:1 ratio seems to be optimal as Golems can start casting new Orb as soon as old finishes and they don't accumulate charges for no reason.

I would also keep all increased area of effect that Golems have, as lowering the area lowers the chance of Overlapping Orbs and can drop DPS by huge margin.


"
Hi. Thanks! This guide helped me get started and level smoothly. But, now that I'm lvl 85, I wonder, what the heck is block good for? Even with 65/55 block chances, I'm getting hit very often! Is it a good choice for the content that is coming ahead for me?


Hi and thanks for support ^^

In theory you could max the block chance for near 75% if you get 30% block chance rare ES shield and use perfect Rumi's flask (20%/10%) with it. This should make you pretty safe against physical hits and spell you can take with capped resistances and high EHP (HP + ES) buffer.

I move around all the time, so I don't really rely on block chance while staying stationary. Try tp move around and outside of enemy packs as soon as poosible in fights. Try to lure physical enemy boss closer and then kite away using Phase Run while Offering and Rumi's flask are up.

Even very deep Delves feel relatively safe if you keep the block up and move away from the packs.

"
DreamAwaken wrote:
hey i pimped your build a bit, feeding frenzy because might is bugged and golems are not aggressive.

deathless uber elder easy, actualy i level to 100 while doing uber elder

played golems long time ago, your thread inspired me to give it another shot with some good items you get in a temp league


Hi :)

I'm so sorry I missed your level 100, had to use old and crappy laptop while traveling!

\o/ Huge GZ on it! \o/

Can I add you in my level 100 Hall of Fame? ;)



UPDATE

PRIMORDIAL MIGHT IS BUGGED FOR A WEEK

GGG Confirmed that "Primordial Might" is not working atm and not increasing Golems aggressiveness. Please use "Feeding Frenzy" instead of "Combustion" for about a week until patch 3.8.1 comes out.

mika2salo
Sep 16, 2019 22:25:06 PM

Hey, I'm playing the Ele version of this build and I don't really get why we would use Spectres over "The Primordial Chain" amulet.

I'm currently running a 6L TV setup and they barely do any damage. Map clear is fine by now with just golems, currently at tier 7, but bosses take too much time IMHO. Can you have a look at my char and tell me what's wrong?

https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Godiak/characters?characterName=godiak_fg

Godiak
Sep 17, 2019 01:18:46 AM

I created Google table CALCULATION: MAX DPS FLAME GOLEMS

Now it have only 1 table for Pledge of hands.

Fill in one field - you get all the information on the damage and the ratio of the types of golems. How do you like the idea? Should I add other conditions and which ones?

I_GameR
Sep 17, 2019 11:51:23 AM

hey, whats calculated in line 3?



i made also some calculations yesterday and there seems to be no (payable) way to beat the dmg of pledge of hands with bodyarmor.
synthesis bow could beat it, but its standard anyway.
so the loss of def is the problem with pledge, but you can use any nice crafted armor to compensate this (example mom, eb, vaal regalia with life..).
dont know how important block is. can you block uelder attacks?
+ you get another 6link. we could socket essence drain for single target since we get 160% spell dmg from the staff, 200% from 10 golems, ~120% from the flame golems due to the ~600% buff to flame golems.
thats 480% increased spell damage without using any extra node.
(we cant play spectres tho)
and we proc EE with added spell dmg types.
i need a lot more ex to test it :D


one question mika: you said victarios gives about 50% more dmg. how is this calculated? the 3 frenzy charges? + the castspeed (which is only good with a lot cdr) or do the power charges and the crit also add a significant amount of dmg?

stfukthx
Sep 17, 2019 14:24:02 PM

line 3 - max dps = 1,52 (coef pledge+echo) * 5 (projectyle) * total flame golems * dps 1 projectyle 1 flame golem

I_GameR
Sep 17, 2019 14:50:58 PM

"
Godiak wrote:
Hey, I'm playing the Ele version of this build and I don't really get why we would use Spectres over "The Primordial Chain" amulet.

I'm currently running a 6L TV setup and they barely do any damage. Map clear is fine by now with just golems, currently at tier 7, but bosses take too much time IMHO. Can you have a look at my char and tell me what's wrong?

https://www.pathofexile.com/account/view-profile/Godiak/characters?characterName=godiak_fg


Hello :)

I thought I had replaced all instances of Elementalist with Golem only -Pledge of Hands variant already? Sorry if old data was still somewhere, where did you find it?

Tukohamas with Elementalist are not very effective especially after changes in 3.8.0. Golems only can reach much higher DPS and add better support attributes than what TV Specs can.

Here's the current PoB for Elementalist :

https://pastebin.com/RZgFTFaW

For the char, upgrades that you can do :
- Replacing amulet with Primordial Chain for more Golems
- Replacing helmet with Vertex or 100+ ES rare one
- Replacing rings with 40+ ES / 40+ HP rare one
- Replacing boots with 100+ ES rare boots, optimally "Deaths's Doors" for bleed immunity
- Replacing belt with 110+ ES crystal belt
- Replacing gloves with 150+ ES rare one

Some of the upgrades can be more expensive than others, but if you trade carefully you should find everything for less than 10-20 c piece.


"
I created Google table CALCULATION: MAX DPS FLAME GOLEMS

Now it have only 1 table for Pledge of hands.

Fill in one field - you get all the information on the damage and the ratio of the types of golems. How do you like the idea? Should I add other conditions and which ones?


"
hey, whats calculated in line 3?

i made also some calculations yesterday and there seems to be no (payable) way to beat the dmg of pledge of hands with bodyarmor.
synthesis bow could beat it, but its standard anyway.
so the loss of def is the problem with pledge, but you can use any nice crafted armor to compensate this (example mom, eb, vaal regalia with life..).
dont know how important block is. can you block uelder attacks?
+ you get another 6link. we could socket essence drain for single target since we get 160% spell dmg from the staff, 200% from 10 golems, ~120% from the flame golems due to the ~600% buff to flame golems.
thats 480% increased spell damage without using any extra node.
(we cant play spectres tho)
and we proc EE with added spell dmg types.
i need a lot more ex to test it :D

one question mika: you said victarios gives about 50% more dmg. how is this calculated? the 3 frenzy charges? + the castspeed (which is only good with a lot cdr) or do the power charges and the crit also add a significant amount of dmg?


"
line 3 - max dps = 1,52 (coef pledge+echo) * 5 (projectyle) * total flame golems * dps 1 projectyle 1 flame golem


Hey :)

I really like the idea about the calculator! It's already helpful, but could use some improvements as it easily opens just for players who already have experience with Pledge of Hands :

- Title -> "Maximum total damage calculator for Flame Golems when using Pledge of Hands and Elmentalist" => Indicates what the modifiers are for the sheet

- Total DPS -> Damage per Single Flame Golem when using Pledge of Hands and Spell Echo => Indicates what the modifiers are

- Projectile count -> 5 for every combination to make it more clear that it's not special for the first one => Indicates that "Projectiles" are same for each set

- "Total DPS" could be after "Total type Golems" => Indicates that amount of Golems affects single Golems damage.

- Maybe add "Total number or Golems" to make it easier to disctinguish how many Golems are out in total

Overall I like the sheet quite a lot. Thanks for creating it! ^^

Can I add it into the build once it's in final form?

Blocking depends 100% on your playstyle. If you are very good at kiting or don't care about some deaths, then it's not really needed. However if you want to keep deaths to minimum or are not familiar with boss attacks, it can be very powerful.

For Uber Elder I guess you can block the tentacles rather consistently as they are (maybe?) physical attack and you can have 70%+ block chance against attacks. I guess the siphon can't really be blocked as it's area spell rather than attack. I blocked 3x Shaper slams consecutively when I was testing first Shaper fight after 3.8.0 patch, so it feels really strong if you don't have unlucky streak and kite enough.

Charity adds about 1.5x multiplier once all charges are out. Power charges add quite a lot of DPS with frenzy charges as they affect monsters different from players.

The multiplier is more important for map clearing as keeping power charges up in boss fight can be impossible.

Ad yes, testing Golems can be extremely expensive. You will end up as broke as me if you sink all of you currency into them ;)



UPDATE

Updated first part of the guide today. Cleaned stuff, changed image provider for image links, updated some parts, etc. I plan to clean second part tomorrow or day after. If you spot any errors, please PM me or notify me in thread.

I also would like your opinion. I could :

1) Add newer, optimal links to all leveling minions for leveling part of the guide. All gems can't be bought from vendor until act 3 library, so getting some gems requires trading with other player.

2) Add newer, non-optimal links to all leveling minions for leveling part of the guide. This means that I would only add supports that you can get as reward while leveling the witch. Then add optimal links after act 3 library, when you can buy all missing gems and replace the non-optimal ones.

Which do you think would be easier for players?

Golemancer guild is now recruiting, 10/130 slots free

mika2salo
Sep 17, 2019 20:42:19 PM

maybe stupid question, how can you make AG lvl 25? all I can see is 24, 21 from gem, +3 from ring, 1 lvl missing

Utuchegal
Sep 18, 2019 08:37:09 AM
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